How do you define 'juxtaposition'?

'Am I the only one confused by the Legion's stand on "extortion"?'

Am I the only one who is confused by why the Legion has not been disbanded?

Steve

Pete, I see that you are saying "SHUT. IT. DOWN." I don't disagree but are you the one who said that it shouldn't be shut down because that would give LC's the opportunity to sincerely join other orders? If it's shut down, we wouldn't know who left because they disagreed with the movement or who leaves because they have no choice. To me this seems like good and sound logic, but,on the other hand, shutting it down makes more sense. It may be the only way to stop the flow of kool-aid. So, have you done an about face? Want to comment on it? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Also, on Thursday the letter from Fr. Skertchly was emailed to all RC in our section. This comment went out with the letter, "It basically seems to be someone attempting extortion of the Legion..." I think you and your commentators covered extortion well, unfortunately very few active RC/LC will ever read it. I would send it out to them but since it didn't come from the Legion, it won't be believed. It's very sad.

Calling this extortion is not an external defense. Externally it hastens there being shut down.

Calling this extortion is an internal defense. Internally it binds the members more closely.

This scorched earth approach has the marks of the schismatic tendencies that you've warned about.

Cindy B -

Can you tell us how this latest Maciel news (molesting his own biological children) is being received in your RC section. Is it a last straw for some folks, or are they just staying with the serenity mantra.

I have been genuinely curious about this and would be interested in feedback from folks like you and In RC (but not of it) who have maintained some ongoing contact with RC. Thanks.

Frank, I left RC a year ago. The letter and comment were forwarded to me from someone else who has left but not informed her section leader. Basically, they don't want to hear any of the "lies and rumors" that are circulating. I can't really talk to any of them about it because they don't want to hear it. It's like they can't even try to think critically about any of this. I have a long time friend who recently left and I can't even get her to talk about it. I believe that charity was so embedded that she can't bring herself to talk ill of anyone.

I'm not sure how many have left, 7 that I know of for sure. Five of us were from the same team and that was 50% of our team. I would guess that this is about 15% of our section. Even of those that I know who have left, only a few of us talk about the on going disaster. Part of this is because we weren't friends before RC.

Pete,
If I had to answer the question you pose the answer is Padilla. In the case of Norma, MM and the LCs were in control, and were able to control the amound of dollars to be given. There was, I am sure, no adversarial representation. Since the encounter of 2008 with Jesus Quirce, an actual sum was named before the LC could control the situation, the family in Cuernavaca has since retained Padilla. So therefore, the Legion is using their petitions (which they made on the basis of what was already done for Norma- but on their terms, not the LCs) as an attack to unite their own.

In response to Frank what the local RC are saying. A friend sent a Mexican news article to another friend who is still RC to see if he knew about the sexual molesting of MM's sons.

He feels that because the pope allowed 50 LC priests to be ordained in Rome in January and that he recognized them and their families in the weekly audience this shows his acceptance of them. He feels that he is being obedient by staying in.

How do we respond to the fact that the Pope allowed this to take place?

"How do we respond to the fact that the Pope allowed this to take place?"

How do we respond to the fact that God allowed this to take place?

Your friend is describing the sin of presumption.

The Legion has one notion of it's own obedience (we'll obey direct orders in the narrowest sense possible, but otherwise do what we want); and another crippling notion of obedience for those it gets it's hands on.

The notion that an RC member is disobedient to the Church or the Holy Spirit by leaving RC without an order from the Church is heresy.

Start with Fr. Berg's observations:

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1339296?eng=y

...inability to see and honestly recognize the flaws and errors that so many people outside the Legion are able to see.

...an unhealthy suppression of personal freedom (which is a far cry from the reasoned, discerned and freely exercised oblation of mind and will that the Holy Spirit genuinely inspires in the institution of religious obedience) and occasions unholy and unhealthy restrictions on personal conscience.

...a simplistic, and humanly and theologically impoverished notion of God's will (its discernment and manifestation) that breeds personal immaturity.

...the lived manner in which Legionaries practice obedience is laced with the kind of unquestioning submission which allowed the cult of personality to emerge around the figure of Maciel in the first place and covered for his misdeeds. Legionary seminarians are essentially trained to suspend reason in their obedience and to seek a total internal conformity with all the norms, and to withstand any internal impulse to examine or critique the norms or the indications of superiors.

...the negative personality change which many, if not most, Legionaries undergo over time: the shallowness of their emotional expression, the lack of empathy and inability to relate normally to others in so many contexts, the general sense of their being "out of touch," etc.

...It would be a very honest gesture for the Legion of Christ to simply call a halt to all vocational work at least for the duration of the canonical visitation, and even better until it finally gets its house in order.

...systematically deprived of the kind of information they not only have a right to know but a fundamental need to know: a complete presentation of the basic facts of Fr. Maciel's double life

...largely unaware of most of these things, shielded as they are from virtually all negative information about the Legion and Regnum Christi. Consequently, they lack the requisite interior freedom to genuinely discern God's calling in their lives at present.

Why recognize Normita but not Blanquita? I would not be surprised if the answer were related to what Pete brought up in his The Monk Who Stole the Cow (March 1). One commenter, Margaret, was surprised to hear allegations suggesting discrimination against people of darker complexions.The Monk felt Pete was slandering MM. I was surprised that not everyone knew of this. I have often heard comments about discrimination based on class. People often question the particular look which the LC's have and the group of people who are in the RC. In Mexico, class is often complexioon related. I have lived in Mexico for 25 years, although I was born in Canada. Within Mexico, there is a certain 'class conciousness', ostracism, misplaced pride, and discrimination ... Those who go to Legion schools are the 'encopetados'. Many of these people feel a certain disdain for the less 'fortunate': they would not want their daughter to marry one who didn't go to their kind of school. They tend to be the well-to-do (schools are relatively expensive). Some are descendents of Spaniards, Italians, French, or have an American mother, etc. Not having indigenous blood,and not being typically 'Mexican' they are, in general,more güerito (of fairer complexion). When I first came into contact with the RC, I asked Fr. Jacome (School of the Faith) why it seemed that the RC/ LC were the extremely well-off of Mexico, and not a broad smattering from all walks of life. He had the pat answer (I see now): when MM set up the RC,he told me, the Holy Father called the LC/RC to tend to the leaders (economic, social, intellectual, business, political...). The idea was to reach the peak (directors/ leaders) of the pyramids (any social structure/ group) and then with the leader 'evangelized', the 'good' infused would trickle down to the rank and file under each leader. The power and money tend to be concentrated in Mexico within the güerito educated class. Therefore, perhaps not necessarily out of racism, but a sense of pragmatism (to curry money, power and favors), MM focused on milking those who happen to be of fairer complexion, discarding the Mexicans(the non-rich) who would not have the 'right stuff' for him and his LC/RC interests.

However, we should not lose sight of the fact that there have been testimonies to MM's admitted admiration of Adolph Hitler. He structured his system of silencing the evil perpetrated by the leaders, of using the 'good of the masses' (ie Church), and so many other things on Hitler's brain-child. So, he may well have been swayed - in a way that one sociopath can be the inspiration for another - by Hitler's well-known racism, extrapolating it to his own 'pet peeve', the non-upper classes of Mexico.

Norma was already RC (ie upper class), Blanca was not. Norma was educated in fancy RC schools, Blanca was not. From what Raúl said in the radio interview, Norma even hosted MM's kids from his union with Blanca, while she herself was bedded with MM. She may even have felt herself particularly blessed to be, as Pete put it in his 'The Monk Who Stole the Widow's Cow', receiving the 'sainted monk's' seed! So, Norma is up to snuff, Blanca is not. Blanca does not pass muster with the expected 'look' for a concubine of MM's.

Please do not interpret this as my any personal judgement of Blanca or Norma on my part, but rather my suggestion of how the LC may see each wife/family, and how they may favor one over the other.

I cannot believe that the LC is circulating Fr. Skertchly's letter and calling this extortion. they barely communicate and now they are changing the subject and again putting the blame on the victim!!

Why didn't they circulate a letter last summer when all the details of other families were coming out on the blogs and say we have been contacted by this family, we are following up to find out the facts and we will do everthing we can to help (finanaically, emotionally, etc) them heal - it is our responsibility! We were told they were doing an investigation. Wouldn't that mean following up with any and all leads of anyone he could have hurt and make it right?

Thanks Pete, I understand!

Pete, I think your 2 positions can be reconciled.

The leadership, the assets, the minor seminaries, the intake of new members, the methodology....

SHUT. IT. DOWN. ALL. OF. IT. YESTERDAY.

The sooner this group is turned into a HALFWAY house for those who will take longer to accept how horribly wrong it all was the better.

Cindy -

Thanks for the response and the insight. I would like to address your question and offer one of my own, but I need to get running to Mass. If our gracious host doesn't mind the continuing conversation, I'll pick this up later.

Best,

Frank

Frank - I'll wait for your response. I reread your first comment, I did forget that in January I emailed our section leader a blog from Giselle regarding the end of the AV in March. She was pretty mad that I was passing on such hearsay and told me that she has complete SERENITY while waiting for the AV outcome. She didn't need to hear anything until it comes down from the Vatican. Charity and Serenity will never mean the same to me again!

I agree with the wife: Maciel was a CIA agent.

The CIA has been pouring money into Latin America since the 70ies so as to curtail the Catholic Church and its preferential option for the poor. That Maciel was recruited by the CIA makes perfect sense, explains the differing identities, his documentation for his different identities, and why he never left the Legion. MM was never for the Theology of Liberation, and with his paternalism towards the poor, became a viable alternative that favoured American interests.

The CIA has been pouring money into the pockets of Evangelicals to finance conversions away from the Church. That they financed Maciel's works and financed his enterprise only proves that they have a multiple-pronged strategy.

Why didn't they circulate a letter last summer when all the details of other families were coming out on the blogs and say we have been contacted by this family, we are following up to find out the facts and we will do everthing we can to help (finanaically, emotionally, etc) them heal - it is our responsibility! We were told they were doing an investigation. Wouldn't that mean following up with any and all leads of anyone he could have hurt and make it right?

On a wild note, I'll save my CIA theories for another time... Fact is I don't estimate that level of genius in a governmental agency (pouring money into Protestant groups, sure; getting a sociopath ordained, yeah, right, so they also control some Mexican bishops now?) and will, barring concrete evidence, sooner suspect the Devil himself of orchestrating this than the fools in DC. (In fact, I've already said a few times that somebody will have to make sure the Vatican sends an exorcist to investigate this mess and deal with any direct diabolical influence he finds.) If you want to get really hairy, I can also give you my rant on proper use of Occam's Razor... Har har...

You are totally wrong to think that the devil and the CIA don't make alliances of convenience.

His wife testifies that MM told her he was a CIA agent, and within the context of Latin America, this is totally, completely plausible.

You are forgetting the great wars in Central America in the 80ies, in Nicaragua, Salvador and Guatemala, where hundreds of thousands of people were killed when you scoff and say only a few Mexican bishops might have been concerned. You simply don't know what the stakes are.

PS And you are also ignoring the recruitment of priests in Iron Curtain countries by the spy agencies of those countries.

So wake up and smell the coffee.

No conspiracy theorist: Your musings about the CIA and a campaign to divide and conquer the Mexican people by inserting Protestant religions rang a bell of memory. About 12 years ago, Alejandro Pinelo,the 3gm Director at that time of the Full-Time Lay Missionaries (Evangelizadores de Tiempo Completo) told a group of us that unidentified (to us anyway) organizations did indeed have that secret plan. We were to be in awe of this amazing insider info and were meant to feel entrusted with a special mission as an apostolate of the RC to wage the battle against this infiltration. It reminds me of that movie, "Sleeping With the Enemy". You know you are being stalked, but the very ones who pretend to be your companions-in-arms are actually the stalkers. Another person, at another time, also mentioned the takeover idea during a Bible class.

Kool: CIA funding of Evangelical groups in Latin America is well known. Do your research. My info comes from Le Monde, and from living in Latin America.

Pete: you've got your blinkers on. Or you haven't seen the CIA in action. They have a bigger picture to look at than somebody's vices, other than how those can be of use to them. So look away from the pedophelia if you are able and see the bigger picture. The Americans were desperate to defuse the Preferential option for the poor, and needed an alternative to political assassination of catechists and bishops. Central America was rising and a real threat to their interests. What better way than recruiting the head of a small religious order, flushing money into it so that it expands and becomes a force in itself, while providing the same head with all of the accoutrements of a double life: multiple identity papers, payments into Swiss Bank accounts, and all the women/men/drugs/boys he could handle? If he had a series of CIA handlers in support functions, he would not have needed to co-opt anyone inside the Legion, and simply done his job by duping them all, and serving his Master.

Cindy –

Getting back to your original question of why the Pope allowed the ordinations to take place, I can only say that I wish I had the answer. But I don’t. The first thing I would do, however, is question the assumption of the person you mention (I’ll call him MexReg); namely, that the ordinations and the recognition in the papal audience amounts to papal approval of legion/regnum. That is typical legion spin and self promotion, pure and simple. The pope doesn’t personally sign off on every priestly ordination ceremony.

Next is the issue of the recognition at the papal audience. As a few individuals around here have pointed out, the pope recognizes groups at every audience, whether representing a particular ministry, nationality, shared interest or vocation. Once again, the legion takes a crumb and attempts to turn it into a 10-course gourmet meal. MexReg would do well to realize that the pope was not holding up legion/regnum for special recognition, for the rest of us flawed humanity to emulate. The Holy Father could just have easily recognized the Italian Women’s Volleyball Team at the same audience.

For argument’s sake, suppose the pope personally intervened to postpone the ordinations, and left the legion off the laundry list of courtesy recognitions at the following audience. Do you think that would make a difference to people like MexReg? Personally, I don’t think so.

Which brings me back to my original question for you about how are regnumites receiving the news. I suspect that regnumites fall into two categories. First, people like yourself, who are reachable and will only extend the benefit of the doubt so far. At a particular point their Catholic sensibilities will win out and they will leave. The second group is personified by MexReg. They are more invested in the pseudo-legion/regnum mystique than they are in being genuinely Catholic. If they can’t cut the cord after learning that maciel sexually abused his own children, they will never have the sense to leave LegionWorld.

But to answer to your objection. You may not personally know CIA agents who are pedophiles, but then all kinds of folks become CIA agents. I knew a decent pair who had been seconded from the Peace Corps to the CIA when I resided in Central America. They were good kids. They weren't involved in the more covert stuff, though the info they provided was used to make up the lists for the death squads just a few years later.

Anyone with a good knowledge of Central America would not be surprized by a suspicion that there is something behind Marciel's wife's saying he was a CIA agent. But maybe I should be talking to CNN in Mexico rather than raising the possibility on this blog with a bunch of people who know zip about Latin America.

Cindy –

Getting back to your original question of why the Pope allowed the ordinations to take place, I can only say that I wish I had the answer. But I don’t. The first thing I would do, however, is question the assumption of the person you mention (I’ll call him MexReg); namely, that the ordinations and the recognition in the papal audience amounts to papal approval of legion/regnum. That is typical legion spin and self promotion, pure and simple. The pope doesn’t personally sign off on every priestly ordination ceremony.

Next is the issue of the recognition at the papal audience. As a few individuals around here have pointed out, the pope recognizes groups at every audience, whether representing a particular ministry, nationality, shared interest or vocation. Once again, the legion takes a crumb and attempts to turn it into a 10-course gourmet meal. MexReg would do well to realize that the pope was not holding up legion/regnum for special recognition, for the rest of us flawed humanity to emulate. The Holy Father could just have easily recognized the Italian Women’s Volleyball Team at the same audience.

For argument’s sake, suppose the pope personally intervened to postpone the ordinations, and left the legion off the laundry list of courtesy recognitions at the following audience. Do you think that would make a difference to people like MexReg? Personally, I don’t think so.

Which brings me back to my original question for you about how are regnumites receiving the news. I suspect that regnumites fall into two categories. First, people like yourself, who are reachable and will only extend the benefit of the doubt so far. At a particular point their Catholic sensibilities will win out and they will leave. The second group is personified by MexReg. They are more invested in the pseudo-legion/regnum mystique than they are in being genuinely Catholic. If they can’t cut the cord after learning that maciel sexually abused his own children, they will never have the sense to leave LegionWorld.

Marciel's abuse is part of the record. His work as a CIA provocateur within the Church isn't. Both are reprehensible. The later explains a lot about the money (there is a limited supply of Mexican widows), the bank accounts, the five different identities. The CIA was able to set up Ben Ladin in Afghanistan. The CIA was able to set up Marciel, and probably did, corrupting the Legion and RC as it did so. Don't settle for half the story, Pete.

If it is possible, MM would give the CIA a bad name-nope. Don't think he would have cared one fig about anyone else's mission but his own- that of raping young boys and living a decadent life with unlimited power. Carlos Slimm is who enabled him- maybe he is the CIA agent.