[SUMMARY: Bp. Ratko Peric of Mostar-Duvno in Bosnia and Herzegovina has sent letters to the pastor and a parochial vicar at Medjugorje, with specific directives about how they and the parish are not to promote the alleged apparitions of the place:
- that alleged messages and commentaries on them are not to be published;
- that prayers from the apparitions are not to be used publicly;
- the parish church is not to be called a "shrine", even privately;
- that foreign priests may not give conferences or retreats without permission of the bishop;
- foreign priests wishing to offer Mass must present a celebret from their diocese or order, and the information is to be recorded;
- a privately-built church has already been closed and is not to be used;
- unauthorized religious communities have no permission to set up residence;
- and about regulating several other forms of promotion of the alleged phenomenon.
This is a newly published document from the website of the diocese of Mostar-Duvno. (Note: the web page contains three documents; scroll down to see the source for what follows.) Here I am presenting a translation based on the Italian version on the website, so I have to acknowledge the limitations involved in a derivative translation. Any mistakes are my responsibility; please inform me via the comment box of improvements or corrections. Thanks! -- Richard Chonak]
Letter of the bishop to Friar Petar Vlasic, parish priest of MedjugorjeMostar, 12 June 2009.: Prot. 648/2009
Reverend parish priest friar Peter!
After having made the canonical visit to the parish of Medjugorje last Wednesday, 10 June, where nine other Franciscan fathers share the pastoral care of souls with you, according to the directive issued by this office, I wish to make reference now, by this means, to several points.
Inasmuch as you are the current parish priest, who have been working in that capacity since September 2007, I express to you my sincere thanks for maintaining transparent records in the books of registration and other matters. For a parish priest, as for a bishop - it is really essential to carry out not only the munus docendi et sanctificandi, but also the munus gubernandi entrusted to us.
Munus docendi:The rule is still valid that in the parish of Medjugorje priests coming from elsewhere are not permitted to conduct retreats or spiritual exercises, nor to hold conferences, without the approval of this office. (Circular of 23.8.2001, #1290/2001)
Analogously, neither foreign nor domestic priests can promote alleged "messages" or "apparitions" which have not been proclaimed authentic in that church or on church property.
Munus sanctificandi:It is praiseworthy that you require from every priest who wishes to celebrate the Holy Mass at Medjugorje the celebret of his ecclesiastical superior and that you record in a particular book all the concelebrants, from the beginning of this year.
As well, you have kept me informed about the "Oasis of peace", which, since the intervention of this office on 15 December 2008, no longer keeps the Blessed Sacrament privately in their chapel and no longer conducts adoration, which they had been doing according to their own account. They do not have permission as a religious association to reside in the territory of this diocese.
Munus gubernandi:You have informed me that the church in Bijakovic, built by a foreign member of the faithful as his ex voto, without the necessary request and approval of the competent ecclesiastical authority, has been closed by now and that no services are conducted in it.
In the parish chronicle you have made sure to record, with the right terminology, everything that happens to this parish as a pastoral unit of this diocese, without regard to all the stories about "seers", "apparitions", and "messages" connected with the parish.
"The phenomenon of Medjugorje":The "Shrine". The parish of Medjugorje cannot be called a shrine, neither privately, nor publicly, not officially, because it is not recognized as such by any level of competent ecclesial authority. And that wording cannot appear on the web site of "Medjugorje - place of prayer and reconciliation", where it is currently found in many places. In a statement on that site - where there is no indication of who is responsible for it - this message appears:
"To avoid any misunderstanding, we wish to underscore that the Shrine has not given the mission of representing Medjugorje to anyone. The Shrine has not given the mission to any community or person either in Medjugorje or outside of Medjugorje - of speading or interpreting the messages of the Gospa. All these initiatives are private and voluntary on the part of the faithful and the communities."From that statement it appears as if the site is proclaiming itself as being a "Shrine". Then it seems in some way to be the only competent [source] to give instruction to the world. As the local Ordinary, in this present letter, I declare that the so-called "shrine" has no mission to declare itself a "Shrine", nor to present (the parish) with that title, because it has no ecclesiastical mission to present itself in the name of Medjugorje, nor to spread or interpret the "apparitions" and "messages" of Medjugorje.
Commentaries on the "messages": I have already discussed with you and with another vicar, with friar Danko Perutina, who writes and publishes the commentaries on the "messages" issued from the "apparitions" on the 25th of the month. It was said that he receives the "messages" of the "seer" Marija from Italy or from Medjugorje when she is in that location, and then he presents them there, comments on them and publishes them. This is contrary to the decision and request of this Curia, especially after the declaration of 10 June 2006, which was repeated in the parish church on 6 July 2009 (the accompanying homily).
The Cenacolo. After our intervention, on Christmas Day of last year, there are no longer private "apparitions" in the courtyard of the Cenacolo by the alleged "seer" Mirjana Dragićević, married name Soldo, on the second of each month.
The association "Queen of Peace..." I have been informed in our meeting that in the association founded by Tomislav Vlašić at Medjugorje, which equally has no permission to reside in the territory of this diocese, there are some members, men and women, who dress in lay clothes.
The number of prayers. In September 2007, on the occasion of your installation in the office of parish priest, I indicated to you that the so-called "seers" cannot present themselves on any occasion to promote their private "apparitions" and "messages", nor to preside, nor to have anyone preside in their place, at the recitation of a certain number of prayers "received" in an "apparition". Therefore, they cannot use prayers from scripture or those approved by the Church as a means of introducing "numbers" and "messages" from the private "apparition".
The intentions of the rosary. It is equally not permitted to introduce intentions received in an "apparition" or "message" during the prayer of the Rosary of Our Lady. We have sufficient official intentions (from the Pope, from the bishop, for the missions) and there is no need to arbitrarily have recourse to alleged apparitions and messages and mix them with the Church's public prayers.
Anniversaries. It is not permitted that the "seers" be invited and present themselves in the parish church or on any church properties at any time, especially on occasions related to the "apparitions" of Medjugorje, to promote their private "messages" and "apparitions". Therefore, we do not mix the unrecognized with what is recognized, the private with the official, the non-liturgical with the liturgical.
Grateful for what you, together with the other friars of the parish, undertake for the good of souls, and because you know how to clearly separate pastoral care from private "apparitions" and "messages", I greet you with devout respects.
And the second letter:
Letter of the bishop to friar Danko Perutina, parochial vicar of MedjugorjeMostar, 12 June 2009; Prot. 649/2009
Reverend friar Danko!
After your priestly ordination in 1999 and at the conclusion of your studies, I appointed you, at the suggestion of your religious superiors, in 2000, parochial vicar of Humac. Then, again at the suggestion of your provincial governor, in 2001, vicar of Medjugorje, in 2005 again of Humac, and in 2007 at Medjugorje. In the meantime, you studied and obtained a degree in mariology at Rome.
I write to you in reference to your commentaries on the so-called "messages" and "apparitions" on the 25th day of the month. In an official visit to Medjugorje on the 10 June, I had a conversation with you, with the parish priest friar Petar Vlasic and another vicar present.
In the conversation it became clear that Marija Pavlović, married name Lunetti, daily "seer" who lives in Italy, and temporarily also at Medjugorje, sends to the parish office or to some one of your pastoral workers in the parish of Medjugorje, her "message" of the 25th day of the month, which is then published on the Medjugorje web site and in other mass media. And you regularly make commentary on the monthly "message", which is published in various languages.
When I asked how the "messages" of the 25th were published, and not the other "messages" said to be "private", I did not feel I received a clear and convincing answer. I do not know who has sent and authorized you to comment on them and publish them on the site. What sort of person is assuming the right to decide that some "messages" be omitted and others published, and that this is done through the parish office and the site connected with the parish of Medjugorje?
We are gradually succeeding in distancing the unrecognized "apparitions" and "messages" from the parish church and from church property, and the appearances of the "seers" before or after Holy Mass. In that conversation I reminded you of having asked in 2006, and reconfirmed in 2009 from the altar, that "No priest who works canonically in this parish of Medjugorje or who is here temporarily, is authorized to present his private opinion, contrary to the official position of the Church on the "apparitions and messages", neither at the celebration of the sacraments, or during the regular acts of devotion, nor in the Catholic media." (homily attached).
To avoid any misunderstanding, in this present letter I declare that you, according to my decree, are not authorized, either in the name of the parish office or as parochial vicar, to comment upon and publish the "messages" of the 25th or any other day of the month. These are private "messages" of private persons for private use. And we cannot permit that this is given the form of a message from the parish office, from the parish priest, or any parochial vicar, or even of the "Shrine" which is not recognized as such at any level: not diocesan, or the level of the episcopal conference, or of the Holy See.
Therefore I expect with trust, without any further admonitions, that from now on you will not publish your commentaries, either in the name of the parish office or in your own name, or under a pseudonym, not after the 25th of this month or at all, as long as things continue as is.
I greet you with devout respects.
These are strong letters; the door is being slammed shut. Bravo, Bishop Peric!
Thanks for the English translations, Richard...
Well, just like the RC faithful, you'll never convince the Medjugorje faithful to give up their belief that Our Lady is appearing.
"All the graces and conversions", etc., etc. Sigh. It's true that God can draw good even from disobedience, but why all the wilfull disobedience to the Church?
It's the same with the Christine Gallagher "Houses of Prayer."
People just have itchy ears and are looking for signs and miracles, rather than just living simple, hard, daily life.
"People just have itchy ears and are looking for signs and miracles, rather than just living simple, hard, daily life."-by Lucien Tenebrae
Exuse me, but didn't the our catholic church APPROVE the appirations of Guadalupe, Fátima, Lourdes, La Salette, Amsterdam, Paris, etc!??? Our Holy Church DID APPROVE them all, and also will approve the appirations of Medjugorje, after the appirations ended as it was with all appirations until today!
Yes, the control of the bishop is being imposed and things are being straightened out, as they probably should be. But let's look at what has actually happened. What has the bishop done here:
-closed a church
-halted Eucharistic Adoration in a chapel
-told the parishioners what their prayer intentions will be
-informed the local authorities that they are under no circumstances to call what is probably the third largest pilgrimage place on earth a "shrine"
-reiterated that these authorities had better not try to invite any foreign priests to give retreats without his approval (Fr. Cantalamessa comes to mind here)
Yes he has laid down the law. I do not think that this is the "doors being slammed shut" (to quote Tominellay) and it is incredibly arrogant of you anti-Medjugorje folks to continue to disparage and belittle those of us who happen to have changed our lives because of extremely powerful and grace-filled experiences at Medjugorje. To continue to lump us all together and label us as those "who have itchy ears, looking for miracles" (Lucien Tenebrae).
No doubt some of you have met people like that but the vast majority of the people I know who have gone on pilgrimage to Medjugorje are serious, practicing Catholics who live the messages of daily Bible reading and rosary, twice weekly fasting, weekly mass, monthly confession. This is the essential message of Medjugorje and we take it seriously. We are well informed, conservative Catholics providing a fine example to our families, neighbors and co-workers. Next time you think of labeling us as a bunch of misinformed, miracle-searching nitwits, why don't you please reconsider and hold your insults.
I was at Medjugorje in late June 2009 and attended a Eucharistic adoration from 10:00 PM to midnight where at least 5,000 people stayed in silent adoration for the full two hours, most of whom were on their knees (in shorts on small, loose gravel). Many stayed well beyond midnight when adoration was moved indoors. Where else on earth do you find such behavior among so many people gathered together? Where else do you find 100+ long confession lines where dozens and dozens of priests hear confessions for hours on end in over 50 different languages?
Here are two statistics for August of the non-shrine, taken from the non-shrine's website:
Holy Communions distributed: 283.000
Concelebrating priests: 6.897 (222/day)
"Exuse me, but didn't the our catholic church APPROVE the appirations of Guadalupe, Fátima, Lourdes, La Salette, Amsterdam, Paris, etc!??? Our Holy Church DID APPROVE them all, and also will approve the appirations of Medjugorje, after the appirations ended as it was with all appirations until today!"
Most Marian apparitions never recieve any decision from Rome and no small number has been diapproved bu the Holy See. There is a substantial list just from the 20Th century at http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/unapproved_apparitions/index.html.
Deacon Mike Brainerd says: Where else on earth do you find such behavior among so many people gathered together? Where else do you find 100+ long confession lines where dozens and dozens of priests hear confessions for hours on end in over 50 different languages?
How sad that people feel the need to travel half way across the world for such an an experience - an experience they should be getting in their own parishes, but in many cases are not. That so many Catholics go to adoration in a place which makes it available and promotes it is not a suprise. It does not validate a phenomena of Our Lady. Rather, it shows that the faithful are rightfully hungry for adoration and confession.
I'm in a parish with long confession lines each and every Sunday (with multiple confessionals running). We also have daily opportunities for adoration.
Good fruits cannot be weighed to the exlusion of the bad fruits. Many members of the Medjugorje movement with whom I have dialogued have strong distaste for the Ordinary of Mostar because of his position. His words need to be weighed very carefully. Humble obedience to his orders is far more precious to God than time spent in adoration. In adoration you give your time to Christ. In obedience, you give up your will.
Richard,
Thanks so much for the translation.
While Catholic News Service covered this earlier, their reporting didn't do it justice. It seemed to make it sound like it was just a reiteration, yet it was not just that.
Using a google translator for part I, the bishop seems to take on the Catholic media in how it reported the Vlasic laicization. He then goes on to give facts to show the links between Vlasic and Medjugorje. Those links explain why he was forbidden to be involved in anything related to Medjugorje under pain of excommunication.
In that first part, he also talks about a serious theological error.
In the secon part, he says something about a birthday for Our Lady.
Although some claim papal approbation of Medjugorje from JPII, I'd challenge anyone to find anything positive from the current pope about Medjugorje. I'm guessing this will all be shut down and dismantled within two to three years.
Diane,
It was me who commented positively on Medjugorje (mgseamanjr), not Deacon Mike. I agree with some of what you said, especially about obeying the ordinary but I have to disagree with some of what you wrote. For instance, you wrote the following:
"How sad that people feel the need to travel half way across the world for such an an experience - an experience they should be getting in their own parishes, but in many cases are not."
Five thousand people adoring Christ and thousands going to confession and reinvigorating their faith is not sad, Diane. I traveled to a remote village in Bosnia not because I was a miracle-seeker but because I was on a prayerful pilgrimage with fellow Catholics. Despite your disdain, pilgrimages are good for the soul. Going to Lourdes or to Fatima or to the shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe on a week-long pilgrimage, where a week of prayer is the only thing on the agenda is not the same experience as driving five minutes to your local Catholic church.
Moreover, by your analysis, Mary would never have needed to appear to anyone at any time because we already have everything we need in our local Catholic church. The fact is that at times God has deemed it necessary or at least desirable to send his Blessed, Immaculate Mother to urge us to return to Himself. If you do not need to hear the message, good for you. I did. And millions of others with me.
The sad part is not that people went on a journey hoping to visit a holy place.
The sad part is not that they went to Mass, or said the rosary, or made a confession, or even had a conversion of life.
No, the sad part is elsewhere.
The sad part is that the claim of supernatural apparitions of Our Lady is not authentic.
The sad part is that this unreal apparition, probably entirely a product of human psychology, misled millions of people and distracted them from real wonders of God and of Our Lady.
The sad part is that the "Gospa" endorsed rebellion by Franciscans in Herzegovina against the local bishops, even though their dispute had received a final ruling from Pope Paul VI in 1975.
The sad part is that friar Tomislav Vlasic's son, born of Sister Manda, a Franciscan, grew up in Germany without his father, while Vlasic stayed in the priesthood, living a lie.
The sad part is that the Medjugorje movement fed the extreme elements of Croatian nationalism and made for another round of brutal war in what was Yugoslavia.
The sad part is that during the war, Medjugorje was the home of a factory for hand grenades.
Lies, deceptions, rebellion, sin, heartache, loss, hate, war, and grenades are the sad fruit of Medjugorje.
Medjugorje without mask (English/Italian website]
www.marcocorvaglia.blog.lastampa.it
Five thousand people adoring Christ and thousands going to confession and reinvigorating their faith is not sad, Diane.
First, thanks for clarifying who wrote the comment.
Secondly, my note about what is sad was taken completely out of context.
Sad is not people who are in adoration. Sad is that people visiting Medjugorje for a rich spiritual experience are not getting the basics at their home parishes. Some are, some aren't.
People go to Medjugorje and see long lines of Confession. Is it any wonder why they would be prompted to go to Confession as well? I had this very experience at Assumption Grotto in Detroit when I visited the first time on a Sunday. There were several confessionals running before Mass and all of them had long lines. It is a tender grace that we are attracted to the Sacrament by witnessing others using it.
I have the greatest hope, that if Holy Mother Church believes the alleged aparitions at Medjugorje are inauthentic, she will not resort to consquentialism for the sake of lots of people going to Confession, adoration and Holy Mass.
The ends do not justify the means when those ends are not fully aligned with Truth.
Please note that first paragraph in my comment above was a quote.
"Humble obedience to his orders is far more precious to God than time spent in adoration."
I think this is a key point to keep in mind. In many of the cases of visions throughout history, obedience was asked of the visionaries for a time. To either not go or to obtain a specific sign/miracle. In each case the visionary was obedient to the earthy authority and verified the visions through their obedience (and obtained the eventual conversion of the earthly authority to their side through supernatural intercession). In cases where it was not authentic, their disobedience quickly drew a light to its false nature.
If those so closely connected with Medjugorje are obedient to this decision, then God will prove it valid. If they are disobedient, then they prove through their obstinacy and pride that it's of non-divine origin.
This is a test - I hope it passes since I have many friends who were touched by Medjugorje, yet I have many doubts that it will.
I am a personal witness of the real graces present in Medjugorje, and in no way a convert to faith in Medjugorje, as some people here are trying to bash those who had a wonderful personal, very often supernatural, experience in Medjugorje.
I do find the orders very precise and even welcoming. The bishop needs to make sure everything Church-wise is under control and in good order with the teaching of the Church.
These orders give everyone the opportunity to be obedient to the Church and our supperiors. As St. Maria Faustina said in her journal: "I am following your instructions, Lord, as much as my superiors allow me to do it". And she was praised by Jesus for her obedience.
Father Danko, was already obedient, just look at Medjugorje's web site, he ceased to give sermons on messages, as of June, the date of the aforementioned letters from the bishop.
On the other hand, in no way the letters from the bishop prevent anyone to go to Medjugorje, or for that matter to 'shut down' Medjugorje. Any priest on travel there should have permission from his own bishop and local bishop, simple, correct and in good faith I would say.
A silent (not less crowded) and obedient Medjugorje in this times is required and I am convinced it will be, as much as I believe this is not human's work but God's and His Mother's.
People continued to go silently at Lourdes even though walls were built around the Grotto...
I am a personal witness of the real graces present in Medjugorje, and in no way a convert to faith in Medjugorje, as some people here are trying to bash those who had a wonderful personal, very often supernatural, experience in Medjugorje.
I do find the orders very precise and even welcoming. The bishop needs to make sure everything Church-wise is under control and in good order with the teaching of the Church.
These orders give everyone the opportunity to be obedient to the Church and our supperiors. As St. Maria Faustina said in her journal: "I am following your instructions, Lord, as much as my superiors allow me to do it". And she was praised by Jesus for her obedience.
Father Danko, was already obedient, just look at Medjugorje's web site, he ceased to give sermons on messages, as of June, the date of the aforementioned letters from the bishop.
On the other hand, in no way the letters from the bishop prevent anyone to go to Medjugorje, or for that matter to 'shut down' Medjugorje. Any priest on travel there should have permission from his own bishop and local bishop, simple, correct and in good faith I would say.
A silent (not less crowded) and obedient Medjugorje in this times is required and I am convinced it will be, as much as I believe this is not human's work but God's and His Mother's.
People continued to go silently at Lourdes even though walls were built around the Grotto...
RE: "Humble obedience to his orders is far more precious to God than time spent in adoration."
This is so very true. I've gone through a few approved apparitions, for example, the diary of St. Margaret Mary, and have collected the quotes where Our Lord emphatically expressed obedience to His Church even before obedience to what He was asking of the Seer. Even if the Church authorities explicitly forbade the fulfilment of Our Lord’s requests, the seer was to obey the Church first without question.
For example Our Lord to St. Margaret Mary: “Further, I am satisfied that thou should prefer the will of thy Superiors to Mine, whenever they may forbid thee to do what I command thee; I shall know well how to find means for the accomplishment of My designs, even though they may appear to be opposed and contrary thereto.”
“Therefore, not only do I desire that thou shouldst do what thy Superiors command, but also that thou shouldst do nothing of all I command thee without their consent. I love obedience, and without it no one can please Me.”
Here is a link to the document mentioned, which collects quotes from St. Margaret Mary, St. Faustina, Blessed Jacinta and Sr. Josefa Menendez:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jdxo2nayzm1
I think part of the Church's approach, when she decides that a certain pilgrimmage spot, or sight of apparitions, will be reigned in, is to gauge the reaction of the priests and faithful.
Even if the Church were to make an error in judgment, in thinking something should be reigned in that, in fact, is not harmful, it is her domain. It is her domain to err in that manner, and her erring in that manner, if she does, is not something she needs to apologize for. And it can't be called "erring," properly speaking, because she is perfectly within her rights to make a decision one way or the other, and expect that decision to be followed.
In her prudence and wisdom, she determines to the best of her ability what is good for the faithful, what is from God, etc.
If the faithful become hostile to her decision, that speaks volumes.
It can happen that she decides one way, and then some time later decides something different. But that is unlikely to happen in instances where her first decision is met with outrage, dissension, and hostility. Because it gives her an indication of the spiritual formation of those who are protesting.
She's kind of like, um, a mother. If a mother notices a group of kids are running around the neighborhood wearing purple shirts because they have joined a pagan cult, she might tell her daughter, I'm sorry honey, you can't wear your purple sweater at present.
If her daughter screams, gets outraged, and throws a tantrum, that's a whole new problem.
The mother has ever right to decide, in prudence and wisdowm, this or that about her daughter's life. The daughter will then reveal a great deal about herself in how she reacts to her mother's legimitate authority.
Loose analogy, I know. But it's worth some thought.
I don't understand why the detractors of Medjugorje rejoice at this news. This is wonderful news. For Medjugorje! The bishop, as a good father, is cleaning his house of everything that he spotted was not done with his permission. But that's excellent news for both believers of Medjugorje or nonbelievers. In no way, as somebody said before, he is shutting down the apparitions or people's belief (or disbelief) in them. Nobody can speak in the name of the Church unless the Church does it in her name, that is to be clear to everybody, even to the most excited about what is really happening at Medjugorje.
I agree, this is a time of obedience. Let us not forget Padre Pio, he was literally imprisoned for 11 (!!) years by his superiors for false accusations. He suffered greatly because of it, but he put it simple: "The will of my superior is God's will".
Let also not draw misrepresentations of what these letters are meant to be. They are very precise about very precise matters. Nobody is shutting down Medjugorje, that would be like shutting down the free will of God.
Also re: the comment of Our Lord to St. Margaret Mary: "I love obedience, and without it no one can please Me."
What is He to think, not only of the Seers, but also of His own Mother, who is advocating and fulminating absolute disobedience, not only to the local Bishop but to the Sovereign Pontiff Himself. You only have to read this quote of an interview with 'seer' Vicka.
Jan. 1982: The Virgin states that two Franciscan priests, removed from their order and under suspension by the bishop, one of whom later fathered a child by a nun, may continue to say Mass and hear Confessions. Vicka the seer is asked, "If the Lady said this, and the Pope says that they cannot...” Vicka answers: "The Pope can say what he wants. I'm telling it as it is.” (From Bishop Zanic's document, 1990)
Here is 'Our Lady', the Queen of Peace, threatening the local Bishop of the time:
June 21, 1983: The Virgin states: "Tell the Father Bishop (Zanic) that I request his urgent conversion to the events of the Medjugorje parish...I am sending him the penultimate warning. If he is not converted, or will not be converted, my judgment as well as that of my Son Jesus will strike him.” (Seer Ivanka writing to Bishop Zanic)
"Here is 'Our Lady', the Queen of Peace, threatening the local Bishop of the time:
June 21, 1983: The Virgin states: 'Tell the Father Bishop (Zanic) that I request his urgent conversion to the events of the Medjugorje parish...I am sending him the penultimate warning. If he is not converted, or will not be converted, my judgment as well as that of my Son Jesus will strike him.' (Seer Ivanka writing to Bishop Zanic)"
Uh, yikes. Huge red flag.
My general human prudence would say: Shut it down.
I had no idea. I don't follow Medjugore closely. My comment above was a general observation about these types of things.
No one here on either the pro- or the anti- side opposes pious devotion. The question is whether or not Mary appears/has appeared to the "seers".
The Medjugorje industry has marketed the "apparitions" extremely well...
What if, instead of Martin Sheen as Fr. Jozo Zovko, and Morgan Fairchild as the nun, the film "Gospa" had featured John Wayne as Bishop Ratko Peric and Morgan Freeman as Diocesan Chancellor don Ante Luburic?
...it's salesmanship...
"THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO THOSE WHO OBEY."
. . . and therefore, the Holy Spirit is NOT given to those who do NOT obey!
I see all the disobedience to the bishops and the Church in the matter of Medjugorjie. This MORE THAN ANYTHING THE CHURCH HAS THUSFAR SAID ABOUT IT, makes me believe that Medjugorjie is NOT a true apparition.
I don't know WHAT spirit is upon them, but I do not believe that it could possibly be the Holy Spirit, or these pervasive disobediences would not be occurring.
"Obey your leaders AND DEFER TO THEM!"
(Hebrews 13:17, emphasis added)
Supporters of the apparitions ought to get themselves ready for these directives to be applied. The goal really is to stop the whole thing as much as possible. That would be the ideal.
But there are practical limitations on what the Church can do: after all, the Church has no police force! The main area where the bishops can act is in stopping the clergy from assisting in the propaganda. The cooperation of bishops in other countries will be needed.
Also, the bishop is moving gradually in order to be gentle but firm for the benefit of people who, through no fault of their own, are misled by the apparition claims.
I have plenty of pro-Medjugorje friends who've said they experienced grace there, so I'm disposed to think well of it.
I used to be agnostic about it, but I don't think one can ignore the now decades of evidence against the validity of the apparitions. This is just from memory from someone who's basically been ignoring the whole phenomenon most of the time:
* Things Our Lady has supposedly told the seers that defy reason and good common sense. (See earlier comment about how she was going to punish the bishop for his opposition.)
* Decades of supposed daily messages from Our Lady which are banal and boring, if obviously true. ("You must pray hard, my children, and be good." would sum up most of them.) Our Lady is not banal, if she's anything. And what's the point of her showing up every day and saying things that any 5th grader could write? What's the message other than prayer and conversion, which you could get in any pulpit any day of the week in any church in the world?
* The unedifying lives of most the seers, who greatly profited financially from their positions. Truly holy people don't go around giving talks for money. How many of them have found religious vocations? How many of them have edifying marriages?
* The disobedience of the Friars and the priests involved, for years and years. Holy people don't disobey their pastors, no matter how wrong the latter might seem to them.
* The defrocking of one of the biggest promoters of the message just recently.
Again, true believers will never give up their persistence, even in the face of all this evidence against. Even if the Vatican clearly declares M is not a valid apparition, they won't give up. They'll cling to some gnostic hope that "they just don't get it, and history will vindicate us."
I tend to believe, after reading some of the comments posted here, that it is the non-believers who are actually looking for sensational in Medjugorje. "Why doesn't He come down from the Cross so that we may believe?" Indeed the messages are 'boring' for those who believe themselves 'adults' in order of the spiritual life, but not so for children, because a child ever knows he is NOT an adult.
If the Church is trying to close down Medjugorje, she can do it and we will obey. I truly believe that people do not know what they are doing and they are closing, for themselves, not a stumbling block, because people are converted, but a great source of HOPE for the days that, as we look around, grow darker around us...
The most important message of Medjugorje is, let us stay united in faith, be converted, live a life of love and obedience to the Church. If I misundertood Medjugorje, mea culpa, but this is what it WAS revealed to me at Medjugorje. This is why and how I became a Catholic.
Even the priest who went astray obeyed the Church in the end, even without him willing it. He was defrocked indeed, but accepted his fate. What he did was wrong, but he departed from Medjugorje and visionary Marija a very long time ago, if that matters for the detractors...
Marriage, my dear Lucien, is a great VOCATION, even though it seems 'boring and banal' at times, and, if the seers did not embrace celibacy, they are not without blessings, especially in a time when it needs one's HEROIC virtue to keep a marriage going and to bear children, unless you lack a true understanding of the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony... You should try to first think well of Marriage than think well, as you said, of Medjugorje.
I am grateful for the Catholic Church, for her sacred Scripture, her sacred Tradition, for her Magesterium, for her deep history, her historic devotions and fullness of truth, and as a former protestant minister, I am especially grateful for Confession and the daily Mass in which we both know (rationally) and experience (mystically) our Eucharistic Lord in Communion where one may find healing of every kind, emotional, relational, even physical. I cannot imagine exhausting her resources or wanting to substitute or supplement her message such that I would look beyond sound faith and reason.
Thank you for the detailed article and for the opportunity to comment.
David, I don't see where in my comment that I disparaged the vocation of marriage.
Believe me, I think very highly of the holy sacrament of matrimony, having lived in it for 27 years (with many very dear children proceeding from same), through hell and high water. ;-)
The Catholic Church all began with a "private" revelation to a young girl called Mary. An angel appeared to her and gave her a wonderful message. That "private" revelation has changed the lives of people for two thousand years. And Medjugorje has been the reason why so many young men have become priests here in Ireland and loads have returned "on fire" to the Church. Hope this proves helpful - Blessings - Rene
Why do people insist that "good fruit" mean that the apparition is good? It's the same with the Legionaries/Regnum Christi group: they insist that the order is God's Will because of all the "good fruits" (completely ignoring anything bad that came out of same order, of course).
God allows good to come out of evil. The good that comes out of evil is not because of the evil but because of God's grace. Thankfully, He does not leave us to reap the deserved miseries of our own sinfulness but instead steps in and uses even bad situations to bring about great good. That does not lessen the evilness of the situation. Something bad cannot be declared good just because God in His mercy allows good to be brought out of it.
I've always gotten the big bad feeling Medjugorje, the same big bad feeling I had when I first read about Maciel's 4th vow. Some of the "messages" from Our Lady are downright creepy (as the ones mentioned above). Creepiness is not from God. Thankfully we are not required to believe in private revelations, and I will continue to steer clear of this very messy situation. Let's pray that God will give Benedict the wisdom to deal with this situation in a way that is best for all involved.
Thank you for the update on this situation, Richard.
Well, no. Seeing as Our Lady didn't hatch out of an egg on the ground, the Catholic Church didn't "begin" with her. It began (strictly speaking) with the Holy Trinity from all eternity.
It also began (in time and space)with the ancient Israelites.
And Our Lady's vision from the Angel was confirmed by the Son she bore, who rose up, and was who he claimed to be, and founded his Church on his apostles.
Making it sound like the whole shebang began with one girl's vision that went unequestioned and unverified is silly.
By Mrs. Rene O'Riordan:
"The Catholic Church all began with a "private" revelation to a young girl called Mary. An angel appeared to her and gave her a wonderful message. That "private" revelation has changed the lives of people for two thousand years. And Medjugorje has been the reason why so many young men have become priests here in Ireland and loads have returned "on fire" to the Church. Hope this proves helpful - Blessings - Rene".
Actually, the apparition to Mary was not just a "private" revelation but was part of "public" revelation which ended with the death of the Apostle John in c.100 AD. The proof of this is that the apparition is found in Sacred Scripture - one of the two channels of "Public" Revelation.
By David:
"Marriage, my dear Lucien, is a great VOCATION, even though it seems 'boring and banal' at times, and, if the seers did not embrace celibacy, they are not without blessings, especially in a time when it needs one's HEROIC virtue to keep a marriage going and to bear children, unless you lack a true understanding of the Holy Sacrament of Matrimony... You should try to first think well of Marriage than think well, as you said, of Medjugorje".
Marriage is a "good" vocation, celibacy is "better". That is Church dogma. Authentic apparitions tend to attract one to the heavenly (such close contact with the Divine will do this). That is why Lucia became a contemplative nun, and why Jacinta wanted to join religious life as well. That all six would choose marriage does not bode well for its authenticity, but by itself it does not mean much. Combined with all the other things already mentioned in the comments, and it is just one more straw that is breaking the camel's back. Also, regarding the marriages of the "seers", the youngest "seer" is now 39, and none of them have more than four children. If they are all living by the teachings of Humanae Vitae, I would expect some of them would have bigger families. Ivan and the former Miss America have only three children together - considering the fact that he is well off enough financially to buy a BMW and purchase a huge New England mansion, I do not believe he would have much of a reason to practice NFP.
Considering the link between Fr. Vlasic's moral problems and Medjugorje -- the "apparition" that gave him a convenient excuse to abandon his lover Sister Manda and their son -- well, it takes chutzpah for anyone to invoke the Annunciation of Our Lady!
"MEDJUGORJE BISHOP EMPHASIZES: DON’T VIEW ALLEGED APPARITIONS AS 'WORTHY OF FAITH'
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=4170
Wade= I'm not a Medagorje Fan, BUT
It's inappropriate to judge someone's moral state based soley on the number of children they have.
You don't klnow if they have fertility problems-- you don't know if they've had miscarriage after miscarriage.
I mean, seriously. Look at Elizatbeth and Zechariah. He claimed to be so holy, but they only had one child! Surely, if they were as good as they SEEMED, they would have had 7 or 8 in their long marriage!
I know many good Catholic couples with 4 or fewer children. From the outside, you might think they were unrepentent contraceptors. But if you KNOW them, you realize that God has just said 'no,' to their prayers for more children--and that they've struggled terribly to accept and understand the mission that God has given them as parents of smaller families.
Sorry about the rant, but your comment betrays how the contraceptive culture wins out even among 'orthodox' Catholics. When you see fertility as something that can be turned on and off, rather than as a gift from God, you've been poisoned by the culture.
We don't have enough sympathy for the barren today-- we assume a lack of children must be proof of a couple's sinfullness--when often it's actually proof of their silent suffering.
One of the most interesting things about Medjugorje is the apparent personality change of Our Lady. From time immemorial she has been very unassuming, parsimonious in speech, leading us by example and word to serve rather than being served. Now, if we are to give credence to Medjugorje, she has become rather garrulous, a read extrovert (appearing over 36,000 times to the seers), telling them to ignore their bishop. Sounds almost like a mid-life crisis.
Dear Lucien and Ward, I am greatly surprised by your views of the incompatibility between married life and a true mystical experience, which you and other people are saying through your words. I know the dogma of the Church that celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom of God is better for what it can do for the Kingdom of God (therefore the reward is greater), but many times God has chosen the lowly of this word to humble the wise. Should I remind you here that St Bridget of Sweden was a married woman with 8 children and she is one of the greatest mystics of all times? Or rather that St Anthony the Great (of Egypt) when he asked God to show him what is his measure or how does is compare to others since he had no one in the desert, then God sent him to a humble married shoemaker in Alexandria and told him: “you are no greater than him”?
There is a great misconception about the supernatural gifts that God bestows to whomever He chooses and the ‘natural’ state of life. What happens to the children of Medjugorje, of for that matter to the other visionaries of Lourdes or Fatima is not because of their chose state of life but by election by God.
In fact, this proves the orthodoxy of Medjugorje, because neither God nor Mary enforced their will on the children of Medjugorje regarding their state of life. Mary of Medjugorje suggested them (again orthodoxy of faith) to chose consecrated life as a better option, but she also said “it is your choice”.
To see married life as an ‘impediment’ for this kind of revelation is dead wrong is what I am claiming here and, at the same time, proves the supporters of this idea as unorthodox (non-catholic, to be more precise).
There is another notable difference between Medjugorje and Fatima and Lourdes: at Lourdes there was ONLY Bernadette, at Fatima, even though there were three children, ONLY Lucia lived an adult life. But at Medjugorje there are SIX children from the same village, or who moved in the same village, who eventually became adults. The idea for them to found real families and TO LIVE TOGETHER come easily to mind. For a single person to chose to go to monastery is more APPROPRIATE and comes easier as an option than to convince or do the same with SIX children who were living, playing, praying and living the ordeal of being visionaries together, everyday of their life, not just 13 or 14 times in their lifetime, like Bernadette or Lucia.
I found the choice of the visionaries to become married and live a good married life very appropriate for our time, they are and they can be good examples of married persons, not extra-terrestrials, as many people tend to expect from them. Lack of good marriages is the cause of the lack of vocations these days. In the domestic Church faith, trust, fidelity and a spirit of sacrifice for the other is learnt. This present time needs, I would say, especially good families IN ORDER TO for us to have good priests, who would consider their parishes - as Humanae Vitae and later Familiaris Consortio demands of the priests – their own FAMILY, where they are FATHERS not merely priests, or worse, only ministers of the Sacraments.
So people, let’s stop bashing the seers, and look at the messages given us through them.
I will continue in another post about the ‘creepiness’ of Medjugorje messages that Anonymouse referred above, by the example of another ‘creepy’ message given to the Church in 1917 and, as is happening today, because was considered too ‘creepy’ at the time, was not listen to…
The messages will never get approved because they will never end as long as the Seers are alive - and they will never end because the Seers know that if they did end, the messages would never get approved.
As for the alleged "fruits", conversions, etc. see http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2009/01/tired-old-fruits-argument.html
On one hand, David, it's perfectly proper to defend the legitimacy of married life as a path to sanctity.
But on the other hand, after you've made that proper point, this does not "prove the orthodoxy of Medjugorje." All it does is respond to one weak objection.
Indeed, the argument about the state of life of the alleged "seers" is a weak argument, and I would urge my fellow Catholics who are skeptics of this phony "apparition" not to make the argument.
Admittedly, it does seem strange that *none* of the so-called "seers" has entered the priesthood or religious life. But there is no hard and fast rule about such matters; so the lack of such vocations doesn't add any clear evidence to the critical case.
And we don't need that issue, anyway, in order to make the critical case.
When we can identify heresy in the "messages" of Medjugorje, when we can identify lies from the "seers", when we can identify disobedience to legitimate authority -- we don't have to waste time talking about matters of subjective opinion.
Now, if you can disprove the charges of heresy, lies, and disobedience, then you can really fight against the critical case. But the heresy is in writing, the lies -- at least some of them -- have been admitted, and the disobedience is famous.
"...So people, let's stop bashing the seers, and look at the messages given us through them..." - David, at 10:58
"...Therefore, brothers and sisters, we cannot behave as if these 'apparitions' are authentic and approved..." - Bishop Peric, June 06, 2009
Non constat de supernaturalitate...Nothing to see here, folks...
Dear Richard, I spent a lot of time searching the internet resources on Medjugorje messages, aside from the fact that I've been to Medjugorje three times and, like many other tens of millions of people, did not really find or see anything suspicious happening there, liturgically wise.
After this search and the visit there I found less credible the sources which detract Medjugorje than those who are in favor.
According to your logic, if bad stories about the seers are mixed with evil one, the existing of the evil ones is a sign of a fake apparition. But, if I look at the vast majority of the detractors web site, I can barely find one which is not HERETICAL about the point that I just mentioned, considering the married state not 'worthy' of the election of God for such matters... So heresy mixed with truth? = Not credible either!
Yes the real problem is if there are indeed heresies in the middle, if there are lies and disobedience. So far, disobedience FROM THE SEERS has not been proven by anybody yet. Heresy and lies remains to be proven by competent commission not from private meetings with the bishop, who was already mounted against them because of the issues he had with the local Franciscan priests. On the other hand, there are also good 'reviews' of the seers from major Church figures as well, for example Sept 28, 2009, Cardinal Schonborn. (search the internet)
With regard to heresy and lies, I believe that there are many more words put in their mouth than they have actually said. I always remember in situations like this, that Padro Pio suffered 11 years of imprisonment in his own cell, mainly because of his Archbishop. Padre Pio's false image (from lies about him) was not restored but later after his death, so I always take detractions with a drop of salt unless the Church pronounces definitively otherwise.
My hope is that we will soon see a real commission from Vatican taking care of the case.
Let us have a look at the message of Fatima. We don’t see there a Mary that is necessarily feeding Baby Jesus, but rather a mature woman who is DEMANDING her adult children, the Church, and more precisely THE POPE, to OBEY her word. Isn’t it daring? She is not even saying please, but ASKING and then threatening with the spread of communism, if the Pope (because the consecration was asked of him) refuses the consecrate Russia on one hand, and on the other, if bored and exhausted people – who were still busy fighting World War 1 at the time – would not repent then an even greater war is at hand. But who would care less about repentance in the middle of a bloody war which engulfed the whole world, which was all about revenge, supremacy and ‘justice’?
“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. IF WHAT I SAY TO YOU IS DONE, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but IF PEOPLE DO NOT CEASE OFFENDING GOD, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that HE IS ABOUT TO PUNISH THE WORLD for its crimes, BY MEANS OF war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I SHALL COME TO ASK for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. IF MY REQUESTS are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; IF NOT, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. THE HOLY FATHER WILL CONSECRATE Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world”.
Is this change of attitude, to a rather demanding one, a ‘mid-life’ crisis of our Lady? Does this sound to anyone: “could you please”? Not to me. And nobody listened, neither the people, because World War 2 existed, nor the Pope, because communism spread up to the borders of Italy, the Pope suffered the shooting on May13th, Fatima Day, and only then the Pope remembered the words of Mary and put them in practice, consecrating Russia for real on March 25, 1984. A few years later, communism fell in the all Eastern countries…
Indeed some of the messages of Medjugorje sound like this, one time it was even addressed to the bishop of Mostar. The reality is that Mostar – the residence of the bishop, just like Sarajevo, was indeed heavily hit by war. That may have been the answer to Her ‘threat’. What a ‘bad’ God, what a ‘abd’ Lady! I went to Medjugorje soon after the war ceased and there was no stone on stone in any village for hundreds of kilometers with the exception of Medjugorje.
It’s hard for me to believe that the demons are cast out by the lord of demons…
Tominellay, don't take it so hard, Archbishop Gagliardi has sworn before the Pope that Padre Pio is a fake old monk, and the Pope believed him for a good while. I recommend for that matter an excellent book on Padre Pio's life,
http://www.amazon.com/Padre-Pio-Hope-Renzo-Allegri/dp/1569551383
Let's be more prudent here and what we are saying about the apparition until all things are made clear. It is not ultimately bishop's decision which will validate or invalidate an event la Medjugorje, but Roman Curia.
For those of you who are really rushing into incriminating the seers and the apparition of Medjugorje as coming from the devil, I would only say hold you breath, and don't blow it out until a true Vatican commission has spelled its final verdict.
That the bishop of Mostar does NOT have the final word in this matter, and whatever he said so far is only his PERSONAL opinion (not to be ignored though), is very clear from Cardinal's Tarcisio Bertone latest statement from May 1998, when he was then Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:
http://chonak.tripod.com/documents/m19980526_bertone.html
You can also find other previous declarations if you go here:
http://www.medjugorje.org/declars.htm
There is also a new book from Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone if someone is interested to check it out, called "The Last Secret of Fatima" (http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Fatima-Cardinal-Tarcisio-Bertone/dp/0385525826/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254338643&sr=8-4).
In this book, under the chapter "Medjugorje", he reinstates the same thing as 11 years ago, but adds even more to it: he is basically saying that Medjugorje still needs a true investigation and, plainly, Medjugorje, because of its amplitude and witnesses, it is either the greatest scandal in the history of the Church or the greatest miracle so far. Cardinal goes even further to say that in the cancerous world in which we live it is highly probable that God takes such measures to sends His Holy Mother for such a long time on Earth. But he is not drawing the line yet...
David,
The bishop's directives are consistent with the "non constat" judgment formula.
Tominellay, we are in the era of YouTube. Do a search for the seers during the apparitions, especially when they were younger and were all together during the apparitions, then another search when they are alone, and look especially at the apparitions of Mirjana.
I see what happens to them during the apparition as anything but 'natural'. To say 'non constat' of anything out of ordinary during the apparition is equal, to me, to say that the bishop has never seen them. That's why maybe other Cardinals like Schonborn or Bertone are not willing to embrace the quick dismissal of the local bishop, even though they respect his view and the 'clean up' actions that he is trying to enforce.
There were no miracles 'on demand' yet, like at Fatima or Lourdes, because no official figure has asked it yet.
There were physical and psychological tests done to the seers during the apparitions and NONE of them could prove a mass histeria or a collective illness of the seers.
Have a look also at the pictures of the children of Fatima, they look exactly the same as these seers during the apparition.
The only problem to be judged in my opinion is not that there is nothing supernatural here, but who are they really seeing. But that is a different matter.
From this 'non constat' alone, it seems to me that the bishop is not really fair in what he is doing and saying so far. Even though his orders should be obeyed...
A distinction of terminology: the devil and the fallen angels are not "supernatural"; they fall into the category of "preternatural".
Yes Richard, I stand corrected, thanks for the remark.
'constat de supernaturalitate', in fact, stands for the true approval of the event of Medjugorje.
'non constat de supernaturalitate' stands for neither good, nor bad, but to be determined. (This is the current position of the bishop of Mostar)
'constat de non-supernaturalitate' (or 'constat de preternaturalitate') invalidates the phenomenon or declares it of demonic origin.