Fox News Channel has averaged 1.4 million daily viewers this past week, according to Nielsen's. I am glad a Catholic priest - Legionary or not - has an opportunity to reach that audience.
RW, what a stupid and irresponsible comment.
So if a Maciel puppet such as Reilly comes out on BBC world service or the Vatican site you'll be glad? Is it great to spread the already stupendous scandal? Good for the Church, good for souls?
In that case, you must be enjoying Mgr. Williamson's fantastic media exposure...
Your great 'formation' shines through this kind of comment.
If you can quote me one thing Fr Jonathan said that is contrary to Catholic teaching I'll give you a piece of candy.
I am just glad that Catholic teaching is being preached to the 1.39999999999999999999999999999999999999 million Fox viewers who can't tell Fr Jonathan is a Legionary and only see a Catholic priest doing his job.
Sorry, it would be much too boring to engage with you in any debate -you're not rational enough.
Please refer to Pete's "Medium is the Message".
And if it were not too much to ask, please respect my Catholic sensitivity at having my Church being represented by such a nincompoop.
I thought it was pretty vacuous, myself. While I didn't hear anything heretical there, I certainly didn't find anything that was very helpful, either.
These responses to a child very upset about the collapse of a bridge very close to home:
1)Life's short kid! We're all dying. If it's not a bridge, it'll be some other tragedy.
2)Yes, God allows some bad stuff to happen, but if we are going to blame him for that, we need to make sure we are thanking Him for the good stuff, too. Because the good stuff infinitely outweighs the bad (oops, isn't that Fr. Anton speaking regarding Maciel?). Small consolation that would be to a child who actually lost a friend in a tragedy.
How about: it's okay to be mad about tragedies. Jesus himself wept when Lazarus died! We may never completely understand why God allows bad things to happen to good people, but we do know from the Bible and teachings of the Church that God loved us enough to sacrifice his only son for us.
So I found his advice to be on the poor side, except for the part about kids being totally turned off by hypocrisy. That was dead on! LOL
Juana, thanks for the laugh! I agree that he does come across as a nincompoop.
Would Fr Jonathan become a hero to you if you knew that he is on sabbatical from the Legion? He is now with the archdiocese of New York. Now what do you say? Is he still a nincompoop?
Well, I didn't actually call him a nincompoop, just said he comes across as one.
And I am a firm believer that you can come across as a nincompoop without LC following your name just as easily as you can with it.
I heard he was on sabbatical a while ago, and I wish him well in his journey. But that doesn't mean I find this commentary of his any less vacuous.
This must come across as a surprise to LC/RC supporters, but I, for one, am not a Legionary-hater. In fact, there are LCs I know that I care very much about. I am a hater of the abuses that have been perpetrated on them by the very system in which they are entrapped.
Sharp criticism does not equal hatred, or even dislike. That was a fallacy taught by Maciel: he wanted all his followers to believe that anybody who said anything negative about them was persecuting them, hating them, and trying to bring down the Church. People who decide to leave LC/RC are not heroes to me, but they ARE people of integrity, and as such I have a deep respect for them. The heroes in this story to me are the original victims who tried in vain for decades to out the truth about Maciel and LC.
I do not rejoice in the suffering of a single Legionary/RC member. But I do rejoice in the fact that the Truth about the order is coming out; unfortunately facing that truth may be very painful for many members of this organization.
By the way, to be fair, does everyone realize that this clip dates to 2007? It is not a recent appearance during the current crisis. So I don't understand Juana's point about "spreading the scandal".
The only beef I have about Fr. Morris is his behavior in the Hannity-Euteneuer dispute. If he smartens up and sets things right in regard to that affair, it would be a good thing to do.
(And yes, I get why Pete posted the clip: the line about "insincerity and dishonesty" could be applied to the current Legion crisis.)
"Would Fr Jonathan become a hero to you if you knew that he is on sabbatical from the Legion? He is now with the archdiocese of New York. Now what do you say?"
Don't be so melodrammatic RW.
No. He wouldn't be a hero.
Because he has not manned-up, in any way, shape or form. So he's somewhere thinking things through. Who cares?
Apparently he's got his act together enough to beebop around the country and be on national television. If he were off somewhere having a nervous breakdown, I would cut the man some slack.
He's not. He's Mr. Personality on Fox News while many, many hundreds of members of his religious group are silently suffering, perhaps losing their faith, and struggling greatly. They could really use a strong, fatherly priest to stand up for them and fight for them.
With the exception of Legionary priests who may be having a very difficult time right now (in a serious, mental health sense), they have no business flying under the radar while their own flock slips down the drain.
Sabbatical is about the most pansy-ass option I could think of right now for an LC priest (excepting those who are seriously suffering, to a degree that inhibits normal life, or need to be silent and alone to work things through). Clearly such is not the case with this priest.
Also, he's been on Fox News as recently as September 22, 2009. I don't see why it matters what topic he covers when, the point is, he's out their chirping out all kinds of life advice, while his order is going down the tubes and taking many lay people with it.
They could really use a strong, fatherly priest to stand up for them and fight for them.
Well, let's not blame Fr. Morris for being himself, being a performer-type, instead of being a strong, fatherly figure. He's not to blame for what his personality and his temperament are, or are not. I mean, some of us may find fast-talking performer-types and salesmen annoying (I do), but it's not his fault.
Not every man has the personality traits and the emotional qualities to fulfill that role of fatherly leadership with courage, support, and reassurance.
Come to think of it, the Legion's tendencies in selecting candidates probably were biased toward certain personality traits, as much as they were biased toward choosing men with good physical appearance. As a result, the Legion community may be relatively lacking in men able to provide that fatherly leadership.
And that's a reason for our hearts to go out to them.
Gee, I hope Father Jonathan doesn't spend the rest of his life fending off criticism that he's not "manly enough".
He is at least on a sabbatical if not on the way out of the Legion. Is that not a step in the right direction? Maybe we can wait and see where he ends up, his move to St. Patrick's may have taken more courage than you know.
Ay Juana! You've made me come back! Pete, it is well worth your time to read that article she is mentioning. (Warning, the Spanish is complicated!) It is appearing in the weekend edition of El Mercurio, Chile's newspaper of record and the oldest uninterruptedly published Spanish-language newspaper in the world, and is therefore probably the highest profile detailed article about the story since it broke in February. It gives background to how the scandal broke, how it is being treated in Latin America, and provides great insight into what individual Legionaries are feeling at this time, in this case a 60 year old Irish Legionary who has worked in Chile for 24 years.
From everything I am hearing from my friends in Latin America and even from the totally non-RC Mexicans I have randomly met at grad school at my secular university, the following phrase perfectly sums up the prevailing cultural opinion:
The next time Fr. Chirpy gushes about how children can see through hypocrisy and deception, I hope I'm there to inform him that my daughter is STILL waiting for the grownups running ECYD to acknowledge the Maciel disgrace to the kids. While they were more than happy to hold him up as a heroic model for the Catholic youth (complete with songs and cheers), since the scandal broke in Feb. no one has been allowed to talk about it publicly at any of the Challenge meetings. I'm sure THAT'S due to the "let's move on with the positive and not violate unity and charity on the team" same attitude that is infecting the RC adult sections. What hypocrites - and I can't imagine what this news is truly doing to the commitment of the youth to serve in ECYD or Regnum Christi.
One thing I've noticed is that more RC women are actually serving as "team moms" this year. Not sure if that's to keep the "chatter from becoming negative" or because the other moms are suddenly "not available".
[Editor's note: This comment has been edited for inappropriate language. --Richard Chonak.]
Pete, you have censored my comment of sept. 24, 2009 9:31:
"By Juana Inés on September 24, 2009 9:31 PM
Yes, RW: Nincompoop... do you want any more? I can offer you plenty."
I think I wrote after "Nincompoop": [--additional insulting words deleted--] and so forth" as well. And would do so again.I am most disappointed. I thought I was dealing with a decent canon lawyer, not a Maciel person. I dread the thought you are using their evil methods -it would be most distressing to many, and a grave responsibility upon your soul.
[Editor's note: I'm sorry to inconvenience you, Juana, but as a Catholic I cannot give absolute freedom of speech on this domain, which I personally own; I believe it is right for us to set some limits out of proper respect for persons, and I hope you can be forgiving about this small limitation. I support Pete in making the previous edit, and only regret that he, probably inadvertently, did not mark it clearly. I do not want to hide the fact when I modify someone's words.]
Please BE BRAVE ENOUGH TO DELETE THE WHOLE COMMENT AND SAY SO. Do NOT feel free to maim my post, just act the way brave dictators do. I do not grant permission to quote me in a partial way.
We have been calling Maciel a pederast and worse. I cannot see your objections there.
And please advice Mr. Vere you are against his collaborators.
I apologize to Juana and other readers, and I thank Richard Chonak for taking control of the situation.
I made the edit for reasons that I had intended to explain at the time in a subsequent comment. However, a minor family emergency (howling baby threatening to wake older siblings) drew me away from the computer, I forgot, and I simply resumed packing.
My employer has offered me, on short notice, a two-month assignment starting next week. This is on top of a weekend assignment. Internet access will be extremely limited and irregular during this time. (Which is why I didn't comment on Fr. Berg's departure from the Legion, or his subsequent interview with Chiesa, until after the fact.)
So this is my last posting until December.
Many of us are angry and hurt with the situation. I'm a parent, I think of my own children every time a new allegation surfaces, I met some of the victims personally in 2004 and found them credible, and when I got back from this meeting I was subjected to a high-pressure phone calls from high-profile LC/RC (who also left impressions, without coming out and saying it, about Giselle and her marriage, not knowing that her husband and I were part of another movement that has generally kept an arm's length distance from the LC/RC). So yes, I've been there.
I also followed closely the lawsuit against ReGAIN, where the Legion forced the discussion board shut down, imposed a gag order (I am told), and reportedly attempted to subpoena the identities of all the board's contributors. So I don't think I need to remind you how litigious the LC/RC has been in the past.
That being said, now that the truth is out about Maciel (with more to come), they can neither sue nor silence every critic of the movement. However, this is not permission to cross certain boundaries without certain evidence. Yes, it's okay to call Maciel a pederast, because on the balance of probabilities he probably was. We've got testimony after testimony from his alleged victims, and the Holy See isn't in the habit of retiring older priests to a life of prayer and penance - especially not founders of large movement - without strong evidence of serious wrongdoing.
Similarly, we have a moral duty as Catholics to hold the Legion accountable and seek justice for Maciel's victims. However, this needs to be done in charity - not as the Legion defines it, but as the Church defines it. As we hold the Legion accountable, we must remember that our goal is truth and justice, not vengeance.
If the LC/RC collapses completely, or goes into schism, let it be because of the consequences of their own actions. Our actions, as Catholics, must always be consistent with the teachings of Christ. (Even if we sometimes fall short - myself included.)
Here are our goals as I see them, in what I believe to be the order of priority:
1 - Truth.
2 - Justice for Maciel's victims, including an apology and restitution (insofar restitution is possible).
3 - The welfare of our children and our families.
4 - Assistance for friends and family who have been adversely affected by the founder or the movement.
Richard Chonak--I read your comment very quickly last night on the way to bed.
"Come to think of it, the Legion's tendencies in selecting candidates probably were biased toward certain personality traits, as much as they were biased toward choosing men with good physical appearance. As a result, the Legion community may be relatively lacking in men able to provide that fatherly leadership."
Yes, I think that is probably true, and something to keep in mind.
Fox News Channel has averaged 1.4 million daily viewers this past week, according to Nielsen's. I am glad a Catholic priest - Legionary or not - has an opportunity to reach that audience.
RW, what a stupid and irresponsible comment.
So if a Maciel puppet such as Reilly comes out on BBC world service or the Vatican site you'll be glad? Is it great to spread the already stupendous scandal? Good for the Church, good for souls?
In that case, you must be enjoying Mgr. Williamson's fantastic media exposure...
Your great 'formation' shines through this kind of comment.
If you can quote me one thing Fr Jonathan said that is contrary to Catholic teaching I'll give you a piece of candy.
I am just glad that Catholic teaching is being preached to the 1.39999999999999999999999999999999999999 million Fox viewers who can't tell Fr Jonathan is a Legionary and only see a Catholic priest doing his job.
Sorry, it would be much too boring to engage with you in any debate -you're not rational enough.
Please refer to Pete's "Medium is the Message".
And if it were not too much to ask, please respect my Catholic sensitivity at having my Church being represented by such a nincompoop.
I thought it was pretty vacuous, myself. While I didn't hear anything heretical there, I certainly didn't find anything that was very helpful, either.
These responses to a child very upset about the collapse of a bridge very close to home:
1)Life's short kid! We're all dying. If it's not a bridge, it'll be some other tragedy.
2)Yes, God allows some bad stuff to happen, but if we are going to blame him for that, we need to make sure we are thanking Him for the good stuff, too. Because the good stuff infinitely outweighs the bad (oops, isn't that Fr. Anton speaking regarding Maciel?). Small consolation that would be to a child who actually lost a friend in a tragedy.
How about: it's okay to be mad about tragedies. Jesus himself wept when Lazarus died! We may never completely understand why God allows bad things to happen to good people, but we do know from the Bible and teachings of the Church that God loved us enough to sacrifice his only son for us.
So I found his advice to be on the poor side, except for the part about kids being totally turned off by hypocrisy. That was dead on! LOL
Juana, thanks for the laugh! I agree that he does come across as a nincompoop.
Would Fr Jonathan become a hero to you if you knew that he is on sabbatical from the Legion? He is now with the archdiocese of New York. Now what do you say? Is he still a nincompoop?
A stopped clock...
Yes. He still is.
"What can men do against such reckless hate?" Keep playing in your hatebox, kids. I'm outta here!
Well, I didn't actually call him a nincompoop, just said he comes across as one.
And I am a firm believer that you can come across as a nincompoop without LC following your name just as easily as you can with it.
I heard he was on sabbatical a while ago, and I wish him well in his journey. But that doesn't mean I find this commentary of his any less vacuous.
This must come across as a surprise to LC/RC supporters, but I, for one, am not a Legionary-hater. In fact, there are LCs I know that I care very much about. I am a hater of the abuses that have been perpetrated on them by the very system in which they are entrapped.
Sharp criticism does not equal hatred, or even dislike. That was a fallacy taught by Maciel: he wanted all his followers to believe that anybody who said anything negative about them was persecuting them, hating them, and trying to bring down the Church. People who decide to leave LC/RC are not heroes to me, but they ARE people of integrity, and as such I have a deep respect for them. The heroes in this story to me are the original victims who tried in vain for decades to out the truth about Maciel and LC.
I do not rejoice in the suffering of a single Legionary/RC member. But I do rejoice in the fact that the Truth about the order is coming out; unfortunately facing that truth may be very painful for many members of this organization.
By the way, to be fair, does everyone realize that this clip dates to 2007? It is not a recent appearance during the current crisis. So I don't understand Juana's point about "spreading the scandal".
The only beef I have about Fr. Morris is his behavior in the Hannity-Euteneuer dispute. If he smartens up and sets things right in regard to that affair, it would be a good thing to do.
(And yes, I get why Pete posted the clip: the line about "insincerity and dishonesty" could be applied to the current Legion crisis.)
"Would Fr Jonathan become a hero to you if you knew that he is on sabbatical from the Legion? He is now with the archdiocese of New York. Now what do you say?"
Don't be so melodrammatic RW.
No. He wouldn't be a hero.
Because he has not manned-up, in any way, shape or form. So he's somewhere thinking things through. Who cares?
Apparently he's got his act together enough to beebop around the country and be on national television. If he were off somewhere having a nervous breakdown, I would cut the man some slack.
He's not. He's Mr. Personality on Fox News while many, many hundreds of members of his religious group are silently suffering, perhaps losing their faith, and struggling greatly. They could really use a strong, fatherly priest to stand up for them and fight for them.
With the exception of Legionary priests who may be having a very difficult time right now (in a serious, mental health sense), they have no business flying under the radar while their own flock slips down the drain.
Sabbatical is about the most pansy-ass option I could think of right now for an LC priest (excepting those who are seriously suffering, to a degree that inhibits normal life, or need to be silent and alone to work things through). Clearly such is not the case with this priest.
And btw, man, his teeth are WHITE!
Also, he's been on Fox News as recently as September 22, 2009. I don't see why it matters what topic he covers when, the point is, he's out their chirping out all kinds of life advice, while his order is going down the tubes and taking many lay people with it.
Isn't anyone else bothered by his effeminate style of speech and movement?
(Forgive me, but I don't have TV and haven't ever seen him speak before on Fox.)
I'm sure he can't help the way he speaks to some degree, and I'm sure he's a good man, etc., but his way of speaking is really off-putting.
Where are the manly priests like Fr. Unteneuer to speak for the Church?
They could really use a strong, fatherly priest to stand up for them and fight for them.
Well, let's not blame Fr. Morris for being himself, being a performer-type, instead of being a strong, fatherly figure. He's not to blame for what his personality and his temperament are, or are not. I mean, some of us may find fast-talking performer-types and salesmen annoying (I do), but it's not his fault.
Not every man has the personality traits and the emotional qualities to fulfill that role of fatherly leadership with courage, support, and reassurance.
Come to think of it, the Legion's tendencies in selecting candidates probably were biased toward certain personality traits, as much as they were biased toward choosing men with good physical appearance. As a result, the Legion community may be relatively lacking in men able to provide that fatherly leadership.
And that's a reason for our hearts to go out to them.
I was thinking less of personality type, and more of raw vocation.
He is, after all, a priest. It is inherent in his vocation, to be a father.
I don't see that at present. At all.
Like I said, if he's so distraught he needs a sabbatical, fine. Clearly he's not.
It comes across as dodging the difficulty and staying in a safe zone.
I've noticed that even fathers meek and mild in temperament come roaring out to defend their children.
Gee, I hope Father Jonathan doesn't spend the rest of his life fending off criticism that he's not "manly enough".
He is at least on a sabbatical if not on the way out of the Legion. Is that not a step in the right direction? Maybe we can wait and see where he ends up, his move to St. Patrick's may have taken more courage than you know.
Yes, RW: Nincompoop... do you want any more? I can offer you plenty.
By the way, Pete, do NOT miss the following Chilean entry (yes, sorry, it's in Spanish):
http://www.mercurio.cl/2009/09/19/el_sabado/reportajes/noticias/5523CC6D-8C99-41E0-9F45-628BF0650F02.htm?id={5523CC6D-8C99-41E0-9F45-628BF0650F02}
Ay Juana! You've made me come back! Pete, it is well worth your time to read that article she is mentioning. (Warning, the Spanish is complicated!) It is appearing in the weekend edition of El Mercurio, Chile's newspaper of record and the oldest uninterruptedly published Spanish-language newspaper in the world, and is therefore probably the highest profile detailed article about the story since it broke in February. It gives background to how the scandal broke, how it is being treated in Latin America, and provides great insight into what individual Legionaries are feeling at this time, in this case a 60 year old Irish Legionary who has worked in Chile for 24 years.
From everything I am hearing from my friends in Latin America and even from the totally non-RC Mexicans I have randomly met at grad school at my secular university, the following phrase perfectly sums up the prevailing cultural opinion:
- ¿Padre John, tu hiciste algo malo?
- No.
- Entonces, quédate tranquilo.
- Legionary, did you do anything bad?
- No.
- OK, so stay calm.
The next time Fr. Chirpy gushes about how children can see through hypocrisy and deception, I hope I'm there to inform him that my daughter is STILL waiting for the grownups running ECYD to acknowledge the Maciel disgrace to the kids. While they were more than happy to hold him up as a heroic model for the Catholic youth (complete with songs and cheers), since the scandal broke in Feb. no one has been allowed to talk about it publicly at any of the Challenge meetings. I'm sure THAT'S due to the "let's move on with the positive and not violate unity and charity on the team" same attitude that is infecting the RC adult sections. What hypocrites - and I can't imagine what this news is truly doing to the commitment of the youth to serve in ECYD or Regnum Christi.
One thing I've noticed is that more RC women are actually serving as "team moms" this year. Not sure if that's to keep the "chatter from becoming negative" or because the other moms are suddenly "not available".
[Editor's note: This comment has been edited for inappropriate language. --Richard Chonak.]
Pete, you have censored my comment of sept. 24, 2009 9:31:
"By Juana Inés on September 24, 2009 9:31 PM
Yes, RW: Nincompoop... do you want any more? I can offer you plenty."
I think I wrote after "Nincompoop": [--additional insulting words deleted--] and so forth" as well. And would do so again.I am most disappointed. I thought I was dealing with a decent canon lawyer, not a Maciel person. I dread the thought you are using their evil methods -it would be most distressing to many, and a grave responsibility upon your soul.
[Editor's note: I'm sorry to inconvenience you, Juana, but as a Catholic I cannot give absolute freedom of speech on this domain, which I personally own; I believe it is right for us to set some limits out of proper respect for persons, and I hope you can be forgiving about this small limitation. I support Pete in making the previous edit, and only regret that he, probably inadvertently, did not mark it clearly. I do not want to hide the fact when I modify someone's words.]
Mr. Chonak,
Please BE BRAVE ENOUGH TO DELETE THE WHOLE COMMENT AND SAY SO. Do NOT feel free to maim my post, just act the way brave dictators do. I do not grant permission to quote me in a partial way.
We have been calling Maciel a pederast and worse. I cannot see your objections there.
And please advice Mr. Vere you are against his collaborators.
I am brave enough to leave the evidence of your impoliteness, though I would be happy to remove it as a favor to you if asked.
I apologize to Juana and other readers, and I thank Richard Chonak for taking control of the situation.
I made the edit for reasons that I had intended to explain at the time in a subsequent comment. However, a minor family emergency (howling baby threatening to wake older siblings) drew me away from the computer, I forgot, and I simply resumed packing.
My employer has offered me, on short notice, a two-month assignment starting next week. This is on top of a weekend assignment. Internet access will be extremely limited and irregular during this time. (Which is why I didn't comment on Fr. Berg's departure from the Legion, or his subsequent interview with Chiesa, until after the fact.)
So this is my last posting until December.
Many of us are angry and hurt with the situation. I'm a parent, I think of my own children every time a new allegation surfaces, I met some of the victims personally in 2004 and found them credible, and when I got back from this meeting I was subjected to a high-pressure phone calls from high-profile LC/RC (who also left impressions, without coming out and saying it, about Giselle and her marriage, not knowing that her husband and I were part of another movement that has generally kept an arm's length distance from the LC/RC). So yes, I've been there.
I also followed closely the lawsuit against ReGAIN, where the Legion forced the discussion board shut down, imposed a gag order (I am told), and reportedly attempted to subpoena the identities of all the board's contributors. So I don't think I need to remind you how litigious the LC/RC has been in the past.
That being said, now that the truth is out about Maciel (with more to come), they can neither sue nor silence every critic of the movement. However, this is not permission to cross certain boundaries without certain evidence. Yes, it's okay to call Maciel a pederast, because on the balance of probabilities he probably was. We've got testimony after testimony from his alleged victims, and the Holy See isn't in the habit of retiring older priests to a life of prayer and penance - especially not founders of large movement - without strong evidence of serious wrongdoing.
Similarly, we have a moral duty as Catholics to hold the Legion accountable and seek justice for Maciel's victims. However, this needs to be done in charity - not as the Legion defines it, but as the Church defines it. As we hold the Legion accountable, we must remember that our goal is truth and justice, not vengeance.
If the LC/RC collapses completely, or goes into schism, let it be because of the consequences of their own actions. Our actions, as Catholics, must always be consistent with the teachings of Christ. (Even if we sometimes fall short - myself included.)
Here are our goals as I see them, in what I believe to be the order of priority:
1 - Truth.
2 - Justice for Maciel's victims, including an apology and restitution (insofar restitution is possible).
3 - The welfare of our children and our families.
4 - Assistance for friends and family who have been adversely affected by the founder or the movement.
God bless you all.
Richard Chonak--I read your comment very quickly last night on the way to bed.
"Come to think of it, the Legion's tendencies in selecting candidates probably were biased toward certain personality traits, as much as they were biased toward choosing men with good physical appearance. As a result, the Legion community may be relatively lacking in men able to provide that fatherly leadership."
Yes, I think that is probably true, and something to keep in mind.