Was there any better composer of church music than Giuseppe Perluigi da Palestrina? The only two contenders I can think of would be Haydn or Bach. Opinions?
Interesting musical question, Eric. And here's my over-trained musician answer:
Palestrina work typifies the sacred Renaissance motet and Mass. There are others who wrote in that style and did a great job such as Orlando di Lasso and Giovanni Gabrieli but Palestrina is the king. That said - Renaissance style differs widely by geography. The Masses and motets of San Marco in Venice have very different characteristics than the Roman motets of Palestrina. (The Venetian style often includes double choirs that sang from different parts of the church - a very striking and challenging performance practice. The english music of the period is also a little different but still well within the sacred characteristics.
Bach typifies the Baroque style and no one measures up, period. I'm not such a big Haydn fan and know less about that historically but so I won't comment.
Funny how Haydn was probably the most influential composer in all of classical music (by virtue of his connections to Mozart and Beethoven, if nothing else), yet you rarely run into anybody who really loves him -- at least in this country. Germany is another story.
Has anyone ever heard his "Seven Last Words"? Now that's some profoundly awesome music. I listen to it often during Lent. But that's about the only Haydn I listen to, except Symphony 104 on occasion. (Can you believe he wrote that many symphonies?)
I do like Arvo -- Steve Schultz of this blog gave Paige and me two Part CDs as a wedding present. I was listening to it just the other day. They almost make me want to listen to more contemporary music. Almost.
Palestrina is rightly cited by the Church in her documents as an exemplar for sacred polyphony. I have an affinity for the Iberian composers, though. If I were banished to a desert island and allowed to take only one CD, Cristobal de Morales' Requiem (McCreesh/Gabrieli Consort) would be it.
Otherwise, for good Western sacred music, I go ancient. The Baroque to Romantic periods are magnificent, to be sure, but for church, give me the anonymously composed monody. For variety, throw in a drone note or two. Or sing parallel organum. Or both!
Palestrina towers over other Renaissance composers of polyphony, but his music has always felt . . . cool, for lack of a better word. Although I recognize Palestrina's greatness, I have to agree with the poster above -- I prefer Victoria and Byrd. Victoria in particular is warm and haunting.
My little choir worked their b***s off for a couple of months to learn his O Magnum Mysterium back in 2000, and they've sung it every year since. This year we're also singing his Ave Maria, which is much more approachable than O Magnum, but short; so I wrote down an arrangement of it where the men sing the chant version first, then the women repeat the first phrase and go into the composed piece. (PDF available upon request.)
Also agreeing with another poster -- polyphony varies widely by locale, and maybe Victoria's music is just warmer because of his warm Spanish blood. But aren't Italians supposed to be hot-blooded too? Well, so much for that theory! Palestrina is just more cerebral, and Victoria is more visceral.
Some of Haydn's sacred music is indeed wonderful -- the Nelson Mass, Mass in Time of War, Paukenmesse, and Seven Last Words all come to mind -- but something important to keep in mind is that Haydn worked under tremendous pressure for many years for Count Esterhazy, who required him to compose new music for Mass, entertainment, etc. This accounts for a lot of the seeming sameness of his writing.
I enjoy Haydn's Sturm und Drang period from the mid-1770s the best; it shows the "dark side" of his personality, I suppose. I played several of his piano sonatas in college because my teacher was a Haydn expert. However, I never formed the attachment to Haydn that I did to Beethoven, or esp. to Liszt and Rachmaninoff. Even though my chops are much in decline, I can still pull out some Rach preludes if I need to fill a program with a singer.
Incidentally, the Washington Capella Antiqua will be performing solemn sung Vespers on the eve of the patronal feast of St. Michael and all Angels, to include Dufay's Ave, regina caelorum and some Cistercian chant, among others.
The service will be held this Sunday, 28 September, at 5:00 PM at St. Michael's Church, 805 Wayne Ave., Silver Spring, MD, three blocks from the Red Line's Silver Spring station.
(I would post this as an actual post if I could. RC? Mr. Johnson? John?)
To me there's no one better than Bach. Along with Palestrina, the next tier would include the following (remember, I'm from a Protestant background, so you may not know all these folks): Thomas
Tallis, Heinrich Schuetz, Dietrich Buxtehude, Johann Gumpeltzheimer and two moderns -- Brahms (for his German Requiem) and Schubert for his incredible Mass.
There is nothing more sublime than Selig sind die Toten, die in Christi sterben. I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it. ("Blessed are the dead that die in Christ") It's spiritual, and haunting, and . . . also hard to find on CD. But it's incredible nonetheless.
Dude, Tallis was not Protestant! In the liner notes for the King's College Singers' "Spem in Alium," they note that although he was Anglican in all appearances, he was a crypto-Catholic who kept in touch with the leading English Catholic families, and never renounced his faith. This was a relatively recent development, after a cache of his letters was discovered.
Ralph Vaughan Williams gets my vote! He's one of the few to meld a clasical style with a congregational format. Perhaps John Rutter could be considered in the same category.
Interesting musical question, Eric. And here's my over-trained musician answer:
Palestrina work typifies the sacred Renaissance motet and Mass. There are others who wrote in that style and did a great job such as Orlando di Lasso and Giovanni Gabrieli but Palestrina is the king. That said - Renaissance style differs widely by geography. The Masses and motets of San Marco in Venice have very different characteristics than the Roman motets of Palestrina. (The Venetian style often includes double choirs that sang from different parts of the church - a very striking and challenging performance practice. The english music of the period is also a little different but still well within the sacred characteristics.
Bach typifies the Baroque style and no one measures up, period. I'm not such a big Haydn fan and know less about that historically but so I won't comment.
While I love Palestrina dearly, I would say you have to include Byrd and Victoria. I really don't think much of Haydn.
Funny how Haydn was probably the most influential composer in all of classical music (by virtue of his connections to Mozart and Beethoven, if nothing else), yet you rarely run into anybody who really loves him -- at least in this country. Germany is another story.
Has anyone ever heard his "Seven Last Words"? Now that's some profoundly awesome music. I listen to it often during Lent. But that's about the only Haydn I listen to, except Symphony 104 on occasion. (Can you believe he wrote that many symphonies?)
Actually he only wrote 52 twice, so the joke goes.
I am quite fond of the Lord Nelson and In Time of War Masses, but sentimentally and intellectually, for me, nothing beats the B-Minor of JSB.
I admit to my lack of education, so I am unfamilar with Palestrina. But I am a Bach lover.
May I suggest that you all give Arvo Part a listen for contempory composer that lift you up.
I do like Arvo -- Steve Schultz of this blog gave Paige and me two Part CDs as a wedding present. I was listening to it just the other day. They almost make me want to listen to more contemporary music. Almost.
Palestrina is rightly cited by the Church in her documents as an exemplar for sacred polyphony. I have an affinity for the Iberian composers, though. If I were banished to a desert island and allowed to take only one CD, Cristobal de Morales' Requiem (McCreesh/Gabrieli Consort) would be it.
Otherwise, for good Western sacred music, I go ancient. The Baroque to Romantic periods are magnificent, to be sure, but for church, give me the anonymously composed monody. For variety, throw in a drone note or two. Or sing parallel organum. Or both!
Palestrina towers over other Renaissance composers of polyphony, but his music has always felt . . . cool, for lack of a better word. Although I recognize Palestrina's greatness, I have to agree with the poster above -- I prefer Victoria and Byrd. Victoria in particular is warm and haunting.
My little choir worked their b***s off for a couple of months to learn his O Magnum Mysterium back in 2000, and they've sung it every year since. This year we're also singing his Ave Maria, which is much more approachable than O Magnum, but short; so I wrote down an arrangement of it where the men sing the chant version first, then the women repeat the first phrase and go into the composed piece. (PDF available upon request.)
Also agreeing with another poster -- polyphony varies widely by locale, and maybe Victoria's music is just warmer because of his warm Spanish blood. But aren't Italians supposed to be hot-blooded too? Well, so much for that theory! Palestrina is just more cerebral, and Victoria is more visceral.
Sorry, forgot to comment on Haydn!
Some of Haydn's sacred music is indeed wonderful -- the Nelson Mass, Mass in Time of War, Paukenmesse, and Seven Last Words all come to mind -- but something important to keep in mind is that Haydn worked under tremendous pressure for many years for Count Esterhazy, who required him to compose new music for Mass, entertainment, etc. This accounts for a lot of the seeming sameness of his writing.
I enjoy Haydn's Sturm und Drang period from the mid-1770s the best; it shows the "dark side" of his personality, I suppose. I played several of his piano sonatas in college because my teacher was a Haydn expert. However, I never formed the attachment to Haydn that I did to Beethoven, or esp. to Liszt and Rachmaninoff. Even though my chops are much in decline, I can still pull out some Rach preludes if I need to fill a program with a singer.
Thanks, Jonathan. I think I'll get some of the pieces you mention on my next trip to the music store, or I'll add it to my Christmas list.
Incidentally, the Washington Capella Antiqua will be performing solemn sung Vespers on the eve of the patronal feast of St. Michael and all Angels, to include Dufay's Ave, regina caelorum and some Cistercian chant, among others.
The service will be held this Sunday, 28 September, at 5:00 PM at St. Michael's Church, 805 Wayne Ave., Silver Spring, MD, three blocks from the Red Line's Silver Spring station.
(I would post this as an actual post if I could. RC? Mr. Johnson? John?)
To me there's no one better than Bach. Along with Palestrina, the next tier would include the following (remember, I'm from a Protestant background, so you may not know all these folks): Thomas
Tallis, Heinrich Schuetz, Dietrich Buxtehude, Johann Gumpeltzheimer and two moderns -- Brahms (for his German Requiem) and Schubert for his incredible Mass.
Oops. Forgot two above: Josquin Desprez and Guillaume Dufay.
Oooh! You HAD to mention Schütz!
There is nothing more sublime than Selig sind die Toten, die in Christi sterben. I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it. ("Blessed are the dead that die in Christ") It's spiritual, and haunting, and . . . also hard to find on CD. But it's incredible nonetheless.
Dude, Tallis was not Protestant! In the liner notes for the King's College Singers' "Spem in Alium," they note that although he was Anglican in all appearances, he was a crypto-Catholic who kept in touch with the leading English Catholic families, and never renounced his faith. This was a relatively recent development, after a cache of his letters was discovered.
Ralph Vaughan Williams gets my vote! He's one of the few to meld a clasical style with a congregational format. Perhaps John Rutter could be considered in the same category.
I can't believe no one has said Marty Haugen yet... have you all not been indoctrinated?
Jaime, you are banned from Catholic Light until you reject Marty Haugen, and all his works, and all his empty promises.