Ken Shepherd has some comments related to the post about the St. Joseph novena.
I’m going to defer to my friends at Catholic Answers, who, when I was struggling with things like this, gave me the biblical, theological and rational grounds for what Catholics believe and do. If not for them and God’s grace, I might be an angry ex-Catholic today.
Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. “Why not pray directly to Jesus?” they ask.
The answer is: “Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!” But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the “go-directly-to-Jesus” objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
The full article is available at www.catholic.com.
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One additional point:
The Christians who are already in heaven are depicted as offering prayers to Jesus.
Since they’re in heaven, they have no needs of their own for which they are praying. The story of Dives makes it appear unlikely that they’re praying for anyone in hell.
That would leave only the poor souls in purgatory and those of us still tramping about the face of the earth as the intentions for which the blessed offer their prayers.
I was at a bookstore once and this obvious Protestant was talking to his friend about the recent beatification of Mother Teresa. This naturally led to the classic, “Why pray to saints when you can pray to Jesus directly?” I laughed at him silently and he turned around to give me a look and I said, “If you can pray to Jesus directly, never ask any friend or pastor to pray for you again. Same difference.”
Works every time :-).
We are encouraged to pray directly to the Father in Jesus’ name.
The real question is not whether they pray for us, but whether we may talk to or even pray to them.
Popular Catholic devotional practice such as “If you want Jesus to do something for you, go to His Mother” sounds very unlike what we see in Scripture. It sounds like manipulation, politics, etc.
I’ve certainly heard that argument, and also that devotion to Mary is no different than respect to your own mother or to say, QEII, but that isn’t what I observe. Likewise with statues of the saints. Supposed to be like family pictures. But I never see anyone burning a candle to a picture of their grandmother, or performing the proskunesis to a picture of their maiden aunt. Except in Shinto.
Josh, I admire your zeal, and your point is correct, but be careful not to alienate people. It’s not a dumb question — why wouldn’t you go straight to the most powerful entity in the universe if you wanted something? I myself once believed as that guy in the bookstore did, but I was corrected through well-intentioned explanation.
Puzzled, if you want to know what the early Christians did regarding the veneration of the saints, you have to go elsewhere besides the New Testament. There is nothing about praying to saints that directly contradicts praying to those who have died in Christ (the prohibitions against conjuring the dead are for magical and occult practices).
Even a cursory review of ancient Christian literature and history reveals that veneration and prayer to the saints were universal. They believed the relics of the saints had supernatural powers, and they said Mass on altars built over the bodies of the saints. These practices continued throughout Christianity, East and West, for 15 centuries years until the Reformation. Even today, the vast majority of Christians implore the help of those who are not truly dead, but are alive in Christ — more alive than you and I are right now.
While we certainly are encouraged to pray to the Father in Jesus’ Name, even Jesus prayed to the Saints…or have we forgotten the story of the Transfiguration? When Jesus sets his face to Jerusalem, he begins by discussing his upcoming exodus with Moses and Elijah. Our prayers to the saints in heaven should be of the same type, just as our requests to fellow believers on earth should be like Christ’s request to his disciples, “watch with me”.
Such an important doctrine would have found obvious and distinct reference in the earliest epistles in the canon. We see no such reference in the NT.
Also, praying in agreement with other believers on earth is valid. Praying in such flowery, adulatory terms to those who have fallen asleep in Christ is not in light of Scripture teaching us that those who have fallen asleep in death are awaiting the Resurrection and have no part anymore in the affairs of the living.
That’s why they are “asleep” spiritually speaking. They are, of course, cognizant of their surroundings, but they don’t interact with those who are still alive.
Furthermore, those standing in the presence of God in Heaven are no more righteous than I am or you are since all righteousness is credited on the basis of faith in Christ, which in and of itself is not earned, but deposited upon salvation and increased by hearing the Word of God and assimilating and acting upon the teachings of Scripture.
Jesus wasn’t praying to Moses and Elijah.
He was not relaying prayer requests to His Heavenly Father through them. He, as the Word made flesh and tabernacled among us was discoursing with them and revealing to them the divine will of God for the redemptive plan of salvation in His blood, the very same blood which would redeem the souls of Elijah and Moses.
Furthermore, the Transfiguration was a sign for Peter, James, and John, and later to the church universal through time and history, as a witness to the divinity and holiness of Jesus Christ as God, to dialogue with the souls of those prophets who came before.
I agree, Ken, that the Transfiguration is not the best proof text of prayer to the saints.
Please see the main blog for the rest of my comments.
I disagree Eric. The very fact that Jesus conversed with “dead” saints, points to the fact that they are aware of their surroundings, and are able to relay messages to the father with us.
Jayson, I think it’s a clue, but Jesus could communicate with anyone he wanted to — he’s omnipotent in his divine nature. It’s not quite the same thing as finite little me praying to St. Joseph. It’s evidence, but not proof. Better still is the idea that saints are “little Christs” who imitate him in every way, including interceding for people.