I had lunch with Spirit-filled Christian Guy on Friday. We started talking about prayer and I brought up praying for the dead. He said, “There ain’t no such place as purgatory!” I told him I wasn’t talking about Purgatory. One of the merits of praying for the dead is that God, who is outside of time, takes into account our prayers for someone who has passed on at the time they are judged, even if that is in the past. I think this is sensible and true. He disagreed.
“Someone is either going to heaven or hell based on whether or not they accept Christ while they are alive. You are just wasting your time if you’re praying for the dead!”
I appreciate any thoughts or Scriptural passages that might help me out. Thanks!
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Re: Prayers for the dead, it is noteworthy that although this was an established custom among the Jews by the first century, this was not one of the many customs or teachings which Our Lord condemned during His ministry.
I don’t put stock in any statement that begins with the words: “You are just wasting your time if you’re praying for…”. I’d like to believe that God is quite the renaissance man and listens to all prayers. I also believe that he responds in with one of three responses: “Yes”, “Later”, or “I’ve got a better idea”.
The Catholic Enyclopedia has an entry on it, according to which the classical passage in II Machabees, xii, 40-46. However, “there is no clear and explicit Scriptural text in favour of prayers for the dead, . . . yet there are one or two sayings of Christ recorded by the Evangelists [and in St. Paul’s epistles] which are most naturally interpreted as containing an implicit reference to a purgatorial state after death.”
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm
I’m not sure how you could discuss ‘prayers for the dead’ without explicitly referring to and justifying belief in purgatory.
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For me, discussing anything with a bible Christian is difficult. It’s like arguing the merits of Hamlet without bringing up the top scholars who have written on the work. They discredit the early beliefs and practices of Christianity as unauthentic and have no use for a past that exceeds 500 years.
I wonder what this friend of yours would say about those who never heard the word of Christ in their lifetimes. Is he condemning them to hell? I’m always leery of any church or individual who stands as judge. Thankfully, the Church realizes that she cannot ultimately condemn a person to hell, since that is solely God’s business.
Keep praying for the dead, and keep praying for intercession. I don’t imagine that your friend would accept the miracle at Fatima, but if there is any truth to the story (which I think there is), then our prayers are greatly needed (i.e. “Lead all souls in to heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy”).
When discussing pergatory with anyone, I don’t appeal to scripture or teaching, though. I go for plain, common sense. If I lead a terrible life, rape, pillage, rob, kill, etc., yet I accept Christ in the last hour of my life and beg for forgiveness, does that mean that I am going to heaven as quickly as a saint who left a legacy of good works? This is why the teaching on pergatory is so important; it provides a sense of justice.
Oh, and I do indeed know that it is spelled “Purgatory.” You know how it is with a brain fart, though. After one comes many :-)
Interesting point of view he had but not that I agree.
Jesus prayed for Lazarus and the others he raised from the dead. That should put your spirit-filled friend in his theological place.
For some scriptural verses that lend support to the belief in the existence of purgatory you might go here:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
However, be aware that any discussion on purgatory between a Catholic and an Evangelical will likely quickly turn to the topics of the nature of justification, grace, salvation, etc.
If Spirit-filled Christian Guy is right that there is no Purgatory, then he is most ceratinly right that praying for the dead is useless.
Look at the alternative. A rich SOB can do every kind of evil imaginable in life, but go to Heaven because he has been smart enoug to pay for a staff of professional prayers. Nope, I don’t buy it. No where in the Bible does it say that a person’s salvation is dependent on the prayers of others.
It sounds like you might want to start with a discussion of intercessory prayer – for the dead or the living! Most Christians will pray that their friends learn to accept Christ, and since God is eternal and not bound by time, it shouldn’t matter *when* you pray for it!
I had a student at Marquette once who was a Baptist. He made a statement like only those who profess belief in Christ are saved. I said, “You mean explicit? Like no one else will be saved? That means most people go to hell.” He said, “That’s right.” He was unapologetic about it. That’s what the Bible says, that’s what I believe.
Of course there is the verse in 2 Macabees that talks about prayer being good for the dead, but that will lead to a discussion about books being added to the Bible by catholics in the 16th or 17th century. If you happen to get to this point, I find it helpful to ask the gent you are talking with if he knows what the first book ever printed using movable type was. Of course the answer is the Bible – the Geutenburg Bible. You can find the text of the Geutenburg Bible online. Macabees is in there. The GB was printed in the mid 1400’s – so this idea of the Catholic Church adding books at the time of Martin Luther is 100% pure bunk – and anyone with access to the internet can see the evidence.
Take a look at 2 Timothy 1:16:
“The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains; but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me– the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day.”
It’s not a strict proof, but it sure sounds like Onesiphorus was dead and Paul was praying for him, doesn’t it?
I am responding to Josh when he said, “When discussing pergatory with anyone, I don’t appeal to scripture or teaching, though. I go for plain, common sense. If I lead a terrible life, rape, pillage, rob, kill, etc., yet I accept Christ in the last hour of my life and beg for forgiveness, does that mean that I am going to heaven as quickly as a saint who left a legacy of good works? This is why the teaching on pergatory is so important; it provides a sense of justice.”
You are misunderstanding God’s mercy. God took our whole penalty on the cross. And to answer your question about if you led a life of murder and rape and simply asked Jesus to forgive you, would He? The answer is emphatically YES!!! Jesus Himself answers this question in Scripture for the whole world to see, showing His mercy and negating the false catholic belief in purgatory in Luke 23:43 in responding to the THIEF on the CROSS by saying (and I quote) “Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with Me in paradise””
Purgatory
The concept of purgatory is based on the fact that heaven has only good
Now you and I know many people who are very good people perhaps even us
We are not bad people we have accepted Christ
We do not do wrong esp. intentionally
As simple as sleeping late when we know we ought to get to school or work
Most people will say, “That’s nothing” yet for heaven sake or, rather ours, it is something
Or what about driving too fast or not doing home work
Sounds trivial yes but that triviality CAN NOT ENTER HEAVEN
Generally if a person dies with these marks of non- heaven things that person is not deserving of hell even the evil one would agree because “hell” is for death non-life total gonners
Than based on the understanding of god’s love and mercy for human beings through the power of the advocate we come to understand that there must be a “ bath or shower concept
Think about it the house is cleaned for the holidays the children were out in the mud
Its time to get inside the house what does the parent say, “ you are too dirty stay out side perhaps but they may also say go and take a bath wash off that mud BEFORE YOU COME INSIDE”
WASH YOURSELF
You not dirty to stay out side forever but not clean enough to get inside
The house is heaven the parent is god
Love of the parent will provide a wash-up room
Some people die before confessing the sin in their last “minute” but heaven holds no sin at all
Purgatory is that understanding that god’s love and mercy provides a wash-up room for us
If a parent knows how to provide a washroom for their children to make themselves clean how much more will god provide a room of purification for us whom god made and loves in god image and likeness?
THANK YOU GOD FOR YOUR LOVE AND COMPASSION AND LOVE AND LIFE
The relationship a person has with the Father comes through the Son. It is a personal relationship, you can not earn it, buy it or give it to another. Pray for the living, that they will have a personal relationship with Jesus, but do not just pray, talk to them, show them the Scripture, live a Spirit-filled life. Let you be a great testimony to your friends. The dead are exactly that dead, there is no second chance. Jesus did tel the thieaf on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise, he did not tell the other that he might get there one day too by the prayers of his friends.
It just so happens i am writing a research paper on Roman Catholicism and that is how i found this site. My answer to your question. The dead are dead. The belief in christ and his resurection must be made in the heart of the person accepting the gift. You can not accept it for them and then hand it over. Even in Revelations the people left behind did not make up their minds. They did not choose to accept the gift. Many of those people will be prayed over by the true beleivers but in the end they will be left behind. (You just got to read the left behind series by Tim LaHaye)A example would be in Matthew chapter 25. versus 35-40 are for the beliver one who has accepted jesus into their hearts. Versus 41-46 are for the non-beleiver or those that did not make up their minds. Acts 2 verse 21. This is important. Notice it says whosoever shall call upon the name of the lord shall be saved. It does not say anything about calling upon the name of the lord for someone else it says whosoever does the calling shall be saved. If you friend didn’t do the calling, he isn’t saved. There is nothing you can do about it. I am sorry.
first corinthians chapter three verses 14-17. I find this most interesting and may be interpreted as an example of purgatory since you will be tried as by fire, but your soul will still be saved.
since only those born again in christ can enter
heaven, it makes logical sense that there is a
place for purification for those that were not
truly “bad”, example a person who hurts someone
by gossip is not the same as some one who kills or
rapes or does cruel things. we may not deserve hell but must be “cleansed” before christ will
admit us to the father. hope is eternal and a hope
in a place of purification fits GODS MERCY AND
GOODNESS. hE DOES NOT JUST DESTROY, HE LOVES.