Taking Dale Vree and NOR to the woodshed


Thanks Greg! At least someone recognizes that Canadians really are on the front lines of the culture war.


Rewrite. Rephrase. Cut. Cut. Cut. Shawn and Greg are trying to say something, but their horrible, pompous prose makes their essays impenetrable. If this were apologetics writing, it would be a bad witness.

Also, they should fire whoever told them to use color-coding as a way to distinguish quotations from multiple authors. Did these two never learn how to indent in HTML?

I have to go get some eye drops now.

Nevertheless, it would take years to match the pomposity of NOR.

With all the different colors in that link, I don't have a clue who said what. I read about a page, and closed the tab.


Wow, when you post something online you never know where it might show up next. :-)

True, I don't "carry water" for Dr. Hahn. For instance, I'm rather uncomfortable with the idea that the Holy Spirit has a "bridal" relationship with Christ. Apart from that obscure quote from St. Methodius (the meaning of which is unclear), I don't think there is any basis for that notion in the Deposit of Faith.

I guess I was too busy answering Vree's caricature of Dr. Hahn's writing to point out the misgivings that I have with the latter.

In Jesu et Maria,

I've read (from Fr. Roger Charest, SMM) that St. Maximilian Kolbe had a theological idea that our Lady in some sense humanly represents the Holy Spirit: the term he used was "quasi-incarnates"! Of course it would take some study to specify what St. Maximilian meant by that; and I trust that he meant it in a completely orthodox way. So Hahn's idea isn't completely unheard of, but it is speculative theology.


Yes, St. Maximilian did say that Mary is the "quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit". In fact, Vree comments on this in Burn, Baby, Burn as follows:

"Dr. Hahn even approvingly notes that St. Maximilian Kolbe was "so bold as to say that Mary was like an incarnation (`quasi-incarnatus') of the Holy Spirit." Alas, saints can say some of the strangest things. It's worth remembering here that when the Church declares someone a saint, she is not vouching for the orthodoxy of everything the saint ever asserted."

I could be wrong, but I believe the Church does read all the writings of those up for canonization, and that significant heterodoxy in those writings would torpedo a cause. At any rate, I disagree with Vree's implication that St. Maximilian's statement was heterodox; he knew that there is no hypostatic union between the HOly Spirit and the Virgin Mary. That's not what he meant.

Years ago, I remember hearing Dr. Hahn call himself a "Kolbeist" or something like that. He does in fact like St. Maximilian's teachings on the Holy Spirit's special bond with Blessed Mother, which partially inspired his speculation that the Third Person of the Trinity plays a "maternal" role in relation to Christians.

In Jesu et Maria,

While we are on the subject of bad witnesses, what about the witness borne by Dale Vree and the Catholic apologists who defend him?

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This page contains a single entry by Pete Vere published on August 9, 2006 9:23 AM.

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