The Italian Catholic website Petrus has published an interview with the former prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, José Cardinal Saraiva Martins. Cardinal Saraiva has joined in the public debate about the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje in Herzegovina by expressing his own skeptical take on the phenomenon. Here’s a translation of the interview. Corrections to the translation are welcome.
[Welcome, readers from Catholic World News, Mark Shea (Catholic and Enjoying It), Medjugorje Forum, Patrick Madrid, etc.]
Cardinal Saraiva, also, is a skeptic about the apparitions at Medjugorje: “The last word is up to the Holy See, but this has nothing to do with Fatima: it could be a trick of the devil”
by Gianluca Barile
VATICAN CITY – The alleged apparitions of Medjugorje continue to inspire debate and sustain polemics, within and without the Church. Thus the presence at New Year’s of Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, the Archbishop of Vienna, in the little Bosnia-Herzegovina locality, was only the most recent occasion to confirm the tension existing in the place where, since the 1980s, the Madonna is said to have appeared to six “seers”. The Austrian cardinal, in fact, celebrated Mass for the faithful coming from around the world, but did not inform the diocesan bishop, Monsignor Ratko Peric, of his presence. Bishop Peric, is still, like his predecessor, unconvinced of the validity of the phenomena, and has publicly objected in the face of what he, evidently, considers an offense. All that has happened, while Pope Benedict XVI, who has had the opportunity to deal with Medjugorje since he was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, is said to have decided (but there has been no official confirmation of the matter yet) to entrust to Cardinal Camillo Ruini the coordination of a Commission to definitively ascertain the truth on the authenticity, or lack thereof, of the apparitions in this small country of the former Yugoslavia. But what, then, are the fruits of Medjugorje? Those who believe in the seers speak of miraculous cures, deliverances from evil, conversions; it is beyond doubt that many people pray, receive Holy Communion, and make confessions in the town. But the “skeptics”, those who do not believe in the authenticity of the apparitions, underscore the division among the people of God, between supporters and opponents, to show that this is a case of deception. “Devil”, after all, means: “he who divides”. We spoke about this complicated event with the Portuguese Cardinal José Saraiva Martins (see photo), a close and trusted collaborator first of the Venerable John Paul II and later of the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI; rector of the ‘Urbaniana’ University much praised by Paul VI; a theologian, former Prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints and a great expert on the Marian apparition, officially recognized by the Church, of Fatima.
Eminence, in your opinion, are the alleged apparitions of Medjugorje to be considered true or false?
“There is no doubt: the apparitions will not be considered authentic, as long as they have not been officially approved by the Church in the person of the Holy Father.”
It is said that the Holy See wants to wait as long as possible before expressing itself.
“To me, this seems the best way of proceeding. The Church does very well to be prudent in the face of events so delicate, which inevitably involve the feelings of millions of the faithful.”
How should a faithful Catholic who wants to go on pilgrimage to Medjugorje proceed?
“He must not take for granted and must not become convinced that the apparitions are authentic; therefore, he must go to the place to pray, but not through his presence to acknowledge the authenticity of phenomena whose approval depends solely and exclusively on the Church, and which in any case neither subtracts nor adds anything to Revelation, which is already complete in Christ.”
And are the conversions a sufficient reason to believe in Medjugorje?
“Absolutely not; whether about conversions, or also about healings, it is not a sufficient argument to evaluate the thesis of the authenticity of the apparitions. Just because people convert in this place, it is not given that the Madonna is appearing. Conversion is also possible in a little country parish.”
Let’s turn to the “seers”. Some people accuse them of having invented everything, and of having economic interests, and some think that in reality, the demon is appearing to them in the guise of the Madonna in order to bring divisions into the Church, even at the price of some conversions, Do you not think so?
“I don’t know if these apparitions were invented or if they have economic interests; for sure, in cases of this sort, the devil’s paw may be here. But God is so great that he knows how to make even the evil one serve for the good of humanity: in this way, it is possible to explain the benefits which many people maintain they received at Medjugorje.”
Again in reference to the “seers”, none of them, in contrast to the overwhelming majority of other seers recognized officially by the Church, has chosen consecrated life. One of them has even married an American model and lives in the USA in a mega-villa with a swimming pool.
“Consecrated life would have been a beautiful testimony on the part of these people, but I see that there is a great difference from Fatima, where the three little shepherds chose to be even more little and humble than even they already were, in order to live in fullness the great gift of the apparitions.”
On this subject: the “seers” assert that the apparitions of Medjugorje are the natural successors of the apparitions of Fatima.
“I don’t believe that they are. I see too many differences. As I said before, the little shepherds of Fatima made themselves humble and chose silence; at Medjugorje, I don’t know if that is going to happen; Sister Lucia entered the cloister, at Medjugorje, no one has chosen consecrated life; the same Sister Lucia put into writing the secrets entrusted to her by the Madonna, while at Medjugorje they continue to keep them for themselves. No, I see nothing in common between Fatima and Medjugorje.”
Eminence, in some of the apparitions, the Virgin is said to have asked the six “seers” of Medjugorje not to obey the prohibitions of their diocesan Bishop, such as, for example, to not speak publicly any more of the alleged “visions”.
“The Madonna could not, in any case at all, be anti-hierarchical and incite disobedience, even if the Bishop of Mostar were wrong. This is another element on which to reflect.”
The Bishop of Mostar recently made known his own displeasure at not being informed of the presence of Cardinal Schönborn at Medjugorje. A “weighty” presence, that some could interpret erroneously as a recognition of the apparitions on the part of the Holy See.
“Far be it from me to think of judging the conduct of Cardinal Schönborn, but I, considering the morbid attention which is concentrated on Medjugorje, and as I always do every time I go out from Rome, would have spoken beforehand with Monsignor Peric: when we Cardinals enter into a Diocese, we are entering into the “house” of the Bishop of the place and we must have the good manners and good sense to announce ourselves.”
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Card. Martins is a wise man.
Card. Schönborn has no respect for his collegue-bishop in Mostar
You only have to read the website of Mgr. Peric
http://www.cbismo.com (Click on Medjugorski fenomen and then on English)to realise that Med. is the biggest fraud in recent times
Fatima and Medjugorje are quite different. Sadly, there are some who conspire against the Holy See – such as those who believe the third part of the secret has not been revealed or that the world has not yet been consecrated as God asked in His Lady – that do not wish to believe this, and so they complicate the matter by sowing confusion and doubts. But not all conspiracists are like this.
Fatima In Sr. Lucia’s Own Words (PDF): http://www.pastorinhos.com/livros/en/MemoriasI_en.pdf
The Message of Fatima: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html
The Sanctuary of Fatima: http://www.santuario-fatima.pt/portal/index.php?lang=EN
Fatima: Grace for Mankind: http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/index.htm
Medjugorje brought me and then my entire family into the Catholic Church. Our faith has become so intense and it is the core of our family now. My two children are the result of Medjugorje — Before my conversion, I was not interested in having children or starting a family, but when both I and my wife experienced profound conversions there, we focused ourselves on fulfilling God’s will for our lives. This article certainly shows that it has a biased interviewer with whom I would never want to associate — a seer living in a mega-mansion? I looked at the photo and that is not a big house; after all, he has quite a few children. Also, this article is an offense to people who have chosen to start families. Parents know it is not easy to raise children in these times! The Medjugorje visionaries are examples of how to raise children in the Catholic faith. I promise you, Medjugorje is real; I believe that more than anything else in this world. I truly hope that my little voice does not get banned by the moderators of this blog… I would hope that the bias of this article’s interviewer does not exist here as well. God bless you all.
Dear Sean,
Thank God for the conversion of you and your
family. Regarding your accusation of bias on the part of the author. It is the very fact that the alleged seer lives in a mansion that places some doubts on the authenticity of his claim that Mary is appearing to him. Where are the acts of charity and prayer to accompany his claims? Where is the obedience to the local Bishop. If you read the lives of the saints you will find that the saints obeyed the authority of the Church no matter what the circumstances.
[quote]Medjugorje is real; [b]I believe that more than anything else in this world.[/b][/quote]
And therin lies the problem with Medjugorje. Belief in the alleged “apparition” trumps obedience to the Magisterium.
My vocation came from our Lady’s intercession in Medugorje. Whether or not it is true, the Lord touched my life in that place and sparked a conversion that has allowed me to say “yes” to a vocation as a priest and religious (12 years ordained!). I went back to Medugorje finally as a priest and I stayed with the Franciscan friars as a guest. They are doing phenomenal pastoral work there, taking care of the locals and the pilgrims – they do not speak/preach as if the apparitions are already approved. While there I was privileged to hear MANY confessions by people from all over the world. Yes, after 20 years, I can honestly say that I saw Medugorje to be the same holy place. Jesus, present in the Eucharist, is the center of all that happens. Hearts continue to be touched. I personally know a number of fellow priests and religious whose vocations began in Medugorje. If the devil is behind it, well…our Lord has grabbed it and is using it to renew the Church – all over the world! Use a little prudence when talking about it please…the Church is reserving final judgment, should we not also do the same?
Cardinal Saraiva, one of the highest ranking cardinals in the church, was promoted to the order of cardinal bishops by Benedict XVI in 2009.
What will you do if the Church denies the authenticity of the visions? What will happen to your faith? Is it God you believe in, or is your god the Madonna of Medjugorje?
Compare the saintly lives of the Fatima shepherd children versus the smoking, rock music listening Medjugorje ‘seers’. Big houses. Miss Massachusetts. It just don’t add up.
Again, Ivan has a family. His house is normal. So what if she once was Miss Massachusetts? On October 13, 1917, Lucia said Our Lady told her the war (WW I) would end that day. It didn’t. It ended on Nov 11, 1918. Seers get it wrong; they do not always understand what they hear from Our Lady and so misspeak of it. (Anyone can verify this by referencing the book Documents on Fatima & Memoirs of Sr. Lucia, by Fr. Anthony Mario Martins.) Further, Lucia did not write down the Fatima secrets immediately, but rather took many years to do so, possibly in the 1930’s and even into the 1940’s – some 20 years after the events themselves. (for one thing she could not read or write at the time of the apparitions).
Sr. Lucia was ordered by her bishop to write down the third secret, but she did not do so until Our Lady gave her permission:
“I realize that her difficulty in writing down the secret was not her health – even though the Bishop feared then she would die and the secret be hidden from the world forever.
The difficulty was that she felt, once written down, it will get out to others, confidences will be broken. Finally, as noted in the documents of this book, Our Lady of Fatima appeared to her again and told her to write it down as the Bishop requested. ONCE OUR LADY APPEARED AND TOLD HER TO WRITE IT DOWN IN OBEDIENCE TO THE BISHOP and give it to him, she had it written down in a matter of minutes. ”
-from Fatima Family Apostolate International, website http://www.fatimafamily.org/index.php?main_page=page&id=22
We should all learn more about Fatima before contrasting it with Medjugorje.
Dear Patrick,
“the very fact that the alleged seer lives in a mansion that places some doubts on the authenticity of his claim that Mary is appearing to him.”
I have been to visionary Mirjana twice and it is not a mansion. Your words “the very fact” are false. Her family lives in a very modest house and “in fact” open their home up to pilgrims to stay and live in a very small portion of it themselves.
“Where is the obedience to the local Bishop.”
There has only been obedience to the local Bishop. This year when he ordered Fr. Jozo to stop caring for the 5,500 orphans from the war Fr. Jozo has stopped out of holy obedience even though we all can have trouble understanding why the Bishop would want the Church to stop caring for the children.
Mirjana tells the pilgrims that if the Church rules the apparitions to be false she should renounce them herself in that moment in obedience to the Church.
But when the local Bishop changed his mind on the apparition of Our Lady Queen of Peace Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope) called for a local Bishop of the surrounding countries to celebrate Mass in Medjugorje to which three responded to the call.
When Mirjana was visiting the Vatican as a translator for the soldiers in the war the Pope Jon Paul II recognized her and requested a personal audience in Castel Gandolfo.
So many people who call themselves Catholic don’t even recognize the voice of Mary, the mother of God. In the 29 short years She has been appearing the world has seen more fruits than not seen since the early days of the Church. People returning to the Father, vocations being born to renew the Church, people returning to the Sacraments and putting the Holy Mass in the first place of their lives.
Mir,
Jordan
If the Church rules the apparitions of Our Lady Queen of Peace to be false I would renounce them in a second out of holy obedience to the Church and love for it. Medjurogje is about Jesus, not about Mary.
What will you do if the Church approves the apparitions of the Virgin Mary to be authentic. Could you say you believe in God if you cannot recognize the voice of His mother?
The messages of Medjugorje are to make the Eucharist, Jesus, the center of your life, to put the Holy Mass in the first place. To pray daily, especially the prayer of the rosary and to pray it together and with the heart. To read the Bible everyday, the breath the Living Word of God. To fast twice a week on bread and water as the early Church did to prepare and give thanks for the Eucharist and for monthly confession.
Satan does not bring people to the Eucharist, to Scripture and the Sacraments. God does.
You can receive God’s grace anywhere in the world but in God’s infinite Wisdom He so designed that Medjugorje be a foundation of grace through the hands of Mary for the world.
Remember the older brother who did not rejoice in the return of his brother. People’s live are changing and they are returning to God. They love the Church and obedient. Where is your heart? Is it open? How many “good Jews” did not recognize the Messiah when He walked among them.
Jordan, I think Patrick was referring to Ivan rather than Mirjana. After all, Patrick referred to the seer as “him”.
And Ivan’s the one famous for the $800,000 house pictured above. According to public records, he paid off the mortgage in one year.
Every time a new “message” is given by any of the visionaries, that is disobedience. In 2006, the local bishop called on the seers to stop publishing “messages” and making propaganda for the phenomenon. In 2007, the Vatican’s CDF even asked bishops in Italy to republish the bishop’s directives, so there’s no point trying to deny that he has the authority: http://www.cafarus.ch/cet.medjugorje.html
I am unclear what the value of a house and speculations about their personal finances nor whom they choose to be joined with in the sacrament of marriage has anything to do with except placing judgments on our neighbor.
That page & site you are using as a source is full of inconsistencies, twisting very important facts into lies and we all know who Jesus called the father of lies.
“I am truly grateful to the Holy Father the Pope, to John Paul II of blessed memory and to the reigning Benedict XVI, who have always respected the judgments of the bishops of Mostar-Duvno, of the previous as well as the current bishop, regarding the so-called “apparitions” and “messages” of Medjugorje”
Cardinal Ratzinger called for a local Bishop of a surrounding country to celebrate the holy mass in Medjugorje in response to the local bishops change of heart on the apparitions of Our Lady Queen of Peace appearing. Three neighboring Bishops answered the call of Cardinal Ratzinger and celebrated mass in Medjugorje in response.
John Paul II personal thanked and blessed Fr.Jozo the parish priest whom was arrested and tortured by the communists who said the children were trying to over through communism.
The local Bishop has since ordered Fr. Jozo to cease taking care of the 5,500 orphans from the war the he has been housing, feeding and educating.
“The Association “International Godparenthood To Herceg Bosnian Children Association” was established on the 20th of December, 1992 in the rooms of the Franciscan monastery in Siroki Brijeg.”
That also is inconsistent with love & charity.
That document you shared also says ” A number of priests that have been expelled from the Franciscan OFM Order by the Generalate of the Order, due to their disobedience to the Holy Father” – which is another lie, only one priest, Fr.Tomislav Vlasic was defrocked. Again, we all know who Jesus called the father of lies.
Jesus taught us to know a tree by it’s fruits. He says, “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?”
We all know the fruits of lies are rotten and we know of the fruits of Medjugorje have not been seen since the early days of the Church. Multitudes of vocations being born, people returning to the Father, to the Sacraments…to the Church.
Satan does not bring people to God, to the Eucharistic or the Sacraments.
The messages of Medjugorje are to put the Eucharistic, Jesus, at the center of our lives, to live the holy Mass. To daily prayer, specifically the pray of the rosary and to pray it everyday, pray it together and with the heart. To read the bible everyday and to mediate on the Living Word of God. To fast twice a week on bread and water, like the early Church did on Wednesday & Fridays, to fast so that we can pray with the heart and make a good confession. And to go to the Sacrament of confession at least once a month.
These are the messages of Medjugorje, the call to our individual conversions.
Medjugorje is about Jesus. It is the call to the family prayer. Our Lady is appearing and she says these are her last apparitions on earth and the fulfillment of Fatima. She is given us the messages that can renew the Church and the world. With these messages the Church can win.
Our mother, Mary is bringing us to her Son, Jesus. Inviting us to fall in love with Him and His Church and teaching us how to respond with His love.
I believe today’s daily reading from Acts is appropriate here.
“So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail;
but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!” Acts 5:38-39
The devil is perfectly willing to allow lots of pilgrims, confessions, Masses, and devotions — as he has done for any number of other false mystical cases — if in the process he gets to foment deception, disobedience, and division.
The Medjugorje phenomenon provided streams of cash to help the rebellious Franciscan friars of Herzegovina extend their disobedience against the diocese and against papal decisions (in the “Herzegovina case”). They’ve had a building boom since 1981 funded by naive “pilgrims”. The “apparition” provided a means of propaganda against the bishops, devout Marian-minded bishops who only want to implement the pope’s decisions in that case.
Jordan complains of a “lie” in the document and says that only Tomislav Vlasic was “defrocked”. But really several friars — I think nine, before Vlasic — were expelled from the Franciscan order. Don’t believe me? Cdl. Puljic complained about their illicit occupation of parishes during the Synod in 2001, as you can read at http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_20_x-ordinaria-2001/02_inglese/b17_02.html
Now that I’ve proved the bishop’s document right on this point, Jordan, don’t you owe us all a little more politeness? Maybe if something doesn’t seem right to you, you could *ask questions* instead of making rash accusations. After all, surely the Gospa wants you to spread peace and love, not falsely accuse people of lying!
That document is full of lies:
—lie—
“I am truly grateful to the Holy Father the Pope, to John Paul II of blessed memory and to the reigning Benedict XVI, who have always respected the judgments of the bishops of Mostar-Duvno, of the previous as well as the current bishop, regarding the so-called “apparitions” and “messages” of Medjugorje”
—lie—
Cardinal Ratzinger called for a local Bishop of a surrounding country to celebrate the holy mass in Medjugorje in response to the local bishops change of heart on the apparitions of Our Lady Queen of Peace appearing. Three neighboring Bishops answered the call of Cardinal Ratzinger and celebrated mass in Medjugorje in response.
John Paul II personal thanked and blessed Fr.Jozo the parish priest whom was arrested and tortured by the communists who said the children were trying to over through communism.
The local Bishop has since ordered Fr. Jozo to cease taking care of the 5,500 orphans from the war the he has been housing, feeding and educating.
“The Association “International Godparenthood To Herceg Bosnian Children Association” was established on the 20th of December, 1992 in the rooms of the Franciscan monastery in Siroki Brijeg.”
You have proved nothing only avoided the truth and then moved on as if you did prove something false to be true. We all know who the father of lies is.
Jesus was not polite with the Pharisees, those who claimed to believe in God but had hard hearts and did not believe in Christ.
And you dare mock the Blessed Mother by calling her the “gospa” when you do not even believe?
Stop defending Satan and making fun of Mary!
Jordan, if Pope John Paul thanked Fr. Jozo Zovko for conducting an orphanage during the war, a perfectly laudable thing for him to have done, that does not contradict the position of the bishop of Mostar regarding the alleged apparitions Medjugorje in any way.
Please document your claim that “Cardinal Ratzinger called for a local Bishop of a surrounding country to celebrate the holy mass in Medjugorje in response to the local bishops change of heart on the apparitions of Our Lady Queen of Peace appearing.”
Pope John Paul II thanked Fr. Jozo not for taking care of the children in the orphanage but for every word and every thing he has done. Fr. Jozo has only testified to Our Lady appearing and Pope John Paul II personally asked him to protect Medjugorje. He met Fr. Jozo in person and sent him a letter. It was a precious show of support by the Holy Father.
Regarding the the care of 5,500 orphans it is troubling that any Christian, especially a leader of the Church would cease charity toward anybody in need but especially towards the weakest among us. This may provide us with the insight why the Vatican has chosen the unprecedented step of setting up the Tribunal for Medjugorje overstepping the local Bishop which has never before been done in the history of the Church. Or perhaps the local Bishops knows something that we don’t like caring for the orphans is contrary to God’s will. That would contradict Jesus so I personally cannot believe that but who knows the local Bishops reasons for preventing the care of the poorest among us, that is between him and God.
Just so we are clear on Pope John Paul II support of Fr. Jozo and in no way do we try to diminish the acts of the Holy Father Pope John Paul II the Great.
Now if I provide you with proof of Cardinal Ratzinger calling for local Bishops to celebrate the holy mass in Medjugorje will you then stop persecuting Jesus and His Church?
If you provide such a letter and stop him from persecuting Jesus and his Church, I think he’d be very much in your debt. In fact he should thank you for every word and every thing you have done.
Untwist your logic. It’s in pain.
“I can only say that the statements on Medjugorje that have been attributed to the Holy Father (John Paul II) and to me have been made up out of thin air.”
–Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI), interview in Der Speigel magazine, July 22, 1998.
So, Jordan, is Pope Benedict a liar?
I just recently viewed this page. I went to Medjugorje back in 1988 on two occassions and I started attending Mass weekly and going to confession again. I can attest to numerous conversion stories. The first time I heard Scott Hahn, Benedict Groeschel and Sr. Briege McKenna were at Medjugorje inspired conferences.
If Medjugorje was declared false, I would certainly be upset but it would not lessen my love for the Mass and the Church. The Church has far greater problems than worrying about Medjugorge. The Church needs to train more St. Francis Xavier’s and begin to re-evangelize fellow Catholics and the world on the fruits of a sacramental life and to promote the saints. From what I gather what some folks say on this site, any Catholic who lives in a house as large as the “seer” has something to do with not being a “good Catholic”. Boy, that will upset our
Archbishop who lives in a very big house.
Medj cannot by any means of any logical conclusion be “real”. “Christ was obedient, obedient until death” The seers and the entire community of religious associated with this place have become disobedient Ipso-facto schismatics.
Priests close to this place, have committed impurities & broke their vows, and the rest have complete disregard for the authority of the local Bishops.
Ivan & many of the seers have severely opposite lives of all previous “seers”. They are living very worldly lives. Ivan himself said he was contemplating the priesthood but broke sharply when he married Miss Boston & drives a BMW. All of the so called “visionaries” have the Mother of God appearing to them everyday & have seen her more than every other saint in the history of Christianity, however not one out of the 6 has entered a life of service to God?
Jesus said “a wicked and adultress generation seeks signs and wonders” …This is us in the worst way. We have little to no faith so we chase any sign of God’s existence. “many will come in my name…..Do Not follow them”. I think satan definitely has a big plan for Medj current believers. Someone stated in this blog that they “believe in Medj more than any other thing in this world” So out goes Christ in the Eucharist, the communion of saints, and the Church’s authority? What happens if it is in fact true that we are living in the end times despite these worldly 6 Medj cons? Will they follow what these worldly seers who continue to steer them away from the Church in which Christ shed His blood for? For which Christ said the gates of hell shall not prevail against?
“The Pillar and foundation of Truth is the Church” 1 Tim 3:15
“Peter, you are Rock and upon this rock I will build my church…I give you the keys to the kingdom, whatever you hold bound is bound, whatever you loose is loosened” Matt 17
The Church has spoken, the Word of God is Christ Himself. When it comes down to the Church’s decision, Which will you choose? I know which I have already chosen…the Church!