[Vree:] "So where did that old maxim -- 'Hate the sin but love the sinner' -- come from? It's not in the Bible. If anything, quite the contrary. The Bible doesn't distinguish between sin and sinner."

Vree does have a point, in that salvation hinges upon the sinner being able to separate himself from and renounce his sin. (C.S. Lewis' fantasy The Great Divorce is a reflection on this basic fact).

Unfortunately, read in the context of the New Oxford Review it would seem this assertion is used to justify their name-calling and crass behavior. Little wonder then that their periodical is cited by gays as a prime example of "Catholic homophobia."

I recall the dispute between Dale Vree and Dave Morrison -- the latter maintaining what led him into the Church was the fact that, while never for a minute condoning his lifestyle, his Christian friends still treated him with the charity that is required by their faith: When I self identified as a gay activist, if the only Christians with whom I had come into contact had been those who took the advice of the New Oxford Review as to how to treat me, I would still likely self identify as a gay activist today and remain dead in my sin.

there are no fags in the military.

+J.M.J+

Gee, whatever happened to "Love your enemies"?

Methinks the Scriptural basis for "God loves the sinner but hates the sin" is in Christ's explanation as to why we should love our enemies:

"That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.... Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect" (St. Matthew 5:45, 48)

Here Jesus ties in loving ones enemies with imitating God, who is kind to unrepentant and evil men (see St. Luke 6:35).

OTOH, if God actually hates sinners, as Vree claims, then Christ has commanded us to do something that God Himself does not in fact do! Would following that command, then, not make us morally superior to God?

Should Christians just forget about all Our Lord's teachings on this subject and grab an OT prooftext to support our position, as Vree appears to have done? Perhaps, then, we should all curse our enemies, because David did so in Psalm 109? What, then, of Romans 10:14: "Bless them that persecute you: bless, and curse not."

I read long ago in a Catholic commentary that imprecatory passages in the OT such as Psalm 109 were written under the old Law, and represent an earlier stage in the process of Divine Revelation, before Christ came to institute the new Law of Christian charity. Now we can no longer do so.

Also, Sacred Scripture is an ancient document written by another culture in another tongue, which had its own ideomatic expressions and hyperbole. Many scholars say that "hate" can simply mean "love less;" as when Christ says His followers must "hate" their father and mother. He is using hyperbolic language to say that we must love God and the Gospel more than our own kin - if they oppose the former. When we apply our modern definition of "hate" to His words, we get the wrong impression.

Might that not be the case with the passage about God "hating" sinners? Perhaps it was an imperfect figure of speech used under the old Law, which has been more fully explained in the New Testament as meaning that God hates sin but still loves the unjust along with the just.

Does God love sinners? Well, lets see:

"But God commendeth his charity towards us; because when as yet we were sinners, according to the time, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8-9)

I mean, let's face it: we're all sinners. If God doesn't love sinners then why did He send Christ to redeem us? "For God so LOVED the world...."

We even see foreshadowings of this truth in the OT:

"For thou lovest all things that are, and hatest none of the things which thou hast made: for thou didst not appoint, or make any thing hating it. And how could any thing endure, if thou wouldst not? or be preserved, if not called by thee. But thou sparest all: because they are thine, O Lord, who lovest souls." (Wisdom 11:25-27)

How could God truly "hate" sinners if He loves all things that He has made?

Just a few random thoughts to ponder....

In Jesu et Maria,

I Peter 3: 8-10 - And in fine, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, being lovers of the brotherhood, merciful, modest, humble: Not rendering evil for evil, nor railing for railing, but contrariwise, blessing: for unto this are you called, that you may inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile. (Douay-Rheims)

No one can speak for God in this situation, particularly since it contradicts Scripture so clearly.

I've been told that by some that in order to effect cultural resistance against the proponents of the Culture of Death, one must adopt their practices, including name calling.

IMHO, that will win a few battles, but at the cost of one's soul.

This particular New Oxford Review article is a piece of crap.

-Theo

Erratum - I mean, that letter to the editor sent to the NOR, as well as any single instance of hateful speech, is crap.

Rosemarie:

Excellent exegesis. You should send a letter based on your comment post to NOR and see if it gets published. Probably would need to truncate a little bit to ensure publication, but it would be interesting to see if they would publish it and if so, how they would respond. I think a reply teeming with gall and vitriol would only provide further evidence that Mr. Vree needs to mature a bit in his theological bedside manner.

I believe that the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner" has its origins in St. Augustine. Hippo, not Canterbury.

How are Mr. Vree's invectives any different from that branch of protestantism that insists that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that a select few who may believe in Him should not perish? I wonder if Mr. Vree realizes how close he is to his separated brethren.